it develops a governing system that answers strong and persistent popular demand for responsiveness from accountability for my fairness, and respect for citizens rights. we will have to look at the signs in the coming weeks about whether there will be inclusive we will have to look at the signs in the coming weeks about whether there will be inclusive and this or whether this campaign of excluding the brotherhood will escalate. will there be things like media freedom? civil society freedom? it is very important, the case against 43 ngo workers, including 16 americans who have been convicted and sentenced to prison for ngo's working in egypt. the u.s. should take the time to pause. suspend military deliveries and assistance in accordance with

our law and review our policy towards egypt and our assistance to egypt including special privileges that egypt receives such as cash flow financing for foreign military financing. the u.s. should carry out its own internal review as well as a dialogue with egyptians inside and outside the egyptian government with the stated intention of resuming assistance as soon as the country is clearly back on a democratic path. in the meantime, we should do a review of the kind of military and economic assistance we offer egypt, which should not be kept on autopilot. rather, it should be updated in order to provide the kind of assistance when it is rescinded -- resumed that is truly suitable to promoting a stable, prosperous, democratic egypt that plays a vital and responsible role in the middle east. the u.s. understandably is wary of damaging its long-standing

relationship with the egyptian government but it should avoid pursuing a policy that appears to be cynical and unprincipled. we should not make the mistake of concluding that the u.s. no longer has any influence in egypt. in fact, the fact that egyptians pay such close attention to what our officials say and have been very critical of our policy means that we still have quite a lot of influence to exert. thank you. >> thank you, ambassador. >> thank you very much for the invitation to be here today and to you, senator menendez, thank you for your service on behalf of all of us and for our nation. having spent seven years living in egypt while serving our country in foreign service, i cannot tell you how excited i have been to see a people long under the yoke of authoritarianism and dictatorship striving to define

who it is they are and what it is they want to be come a how they want to shape their society. this has been largely a revolution to define egypt's identity and to establish a constitutional basis, a legal basis, for egypt to pursue its own form of democracy. we are looking for a second chance for this revolution. this revolution is likely to continue to go through phases as the egyptians wrestle with these pressing large issues on their agenda. i would offer three comments in addition to the written testimony that i submitted for the record. first of all, we need to understand that this is an ongoing dynamic process. we are in round three or four of what might be termed a heavyweight bout. there are forces in egypt that will continue to contest for political power.

the egyptian public is as we know badly divided, almost evenly divided among these various forces, including those who look to the military and security services for stability and law and order him including those who would like to see egypt defined by an islamist agenda. for those who were not that unhappy with the previous regime and since we want to return to some form of stability while enjoying some liberty and freedom. we need to do is be patient. the revolution is only in his third year. as revolutions go, they normally take a long time to unfold. as we take a look at the last few weeks in egypt, we should

be struck by the way in which the form of popular will was expressed both in the petition that added many millions of signatures as well as a demonstrations on june 30 and afterwards that persuaded the military to oust the former president. i know we are debating the question of whether this fits the definition of a coup according to our law and we should be debating that as the lawyers look at legal issues. we need to be mindful that millions of egyptians took to the street from all classes, all sectors of society, not just cairo, but upper egypt as well, alexandria, and the delta to say they did not like what resident mohamed morsi was doing to the country. he fired judges and basically a certain powers and accrued powers only to himself. having turned the other cheek and eye when it came to the massacres of coptic christians and others. the egyptian people basically said that we were ready to go to

the streets to push hosni mubarak out of office and we were ready to go to the streets to push mohamed morsi out of office. third point, the question of leverage. we need to understand that the egypt-u.s. relationship that we have enjoyed now for more than three decades is changing. it is changing rather rapidly. the degree to which our assistance of the late 1970's, 1980's, and 1990's contributed to major changes in egypt. we helped to transform the egyptian military from a military alliance on the soviet doctrine, training, and weapons, to a military that is basically interoperable with ours. that military provides

significant assistance to egypt to whatever we do in the middle east and beyond the middle east. we have created a partnership with egyptian agencies, intelligence, counterterrorism agencies, that has been of direct benefit to the u.s. in our own efforts to counter terrorism against us and against our interests. we have helped to change the egyptian economy from a statist economy that hosni mubarak inherited to an economy which is largely dominated by the private sector. there are still changes that need to be effected to make this economy providing its benefits fairly to all people. the investment we have made has paid off and it is an investment that we need to consider as we think about what we want to do in the future. our leverage with respect to egypt today is reduced and we need to understand that. the degree to which we do can help us see egypt through what some are calling a second chance in its own revolution. a second chance also for us to

redefine this important strategic relationship. in that respect, i think it would be shortsighted to cut aid to the egyptian military at this time. in fact, as i say in my testimony, we should have considered doing this years ago. egypt's needs have largely been economic. to cut that aid off now would lose us the one partner that has proven to be stable and reliable in pursuit of our own strategic objectives. we should see egypt through this crisis. we should provide advice quietly. we tend to say too much publicly and we tend to react too much to daily events. quiet advice may be the order of the day.

secondly, i think our own actions in this respect need to be tempered as well. understanding that the egyptian people, a proud people, are going to define their own future. we can help them do it but we cannot make demands of them and expect them to follow our demands simply because we are providing assistance. thank you, mr. chairman. >> thank you all for your testimony. it is very insightful. as both diplomats and academics, you need more than five minutes to do, but it was all very worthwhile. let me start off -- i am concerned, and i would like to hear your views. i think that egyptian society believes that the u.s. sided with the brotherhood in a way that was against their will. i sense that from conversations,

from civil society, from reading. if we were to cut off the aid now, would that not in that civil society reinforce the view, that that is in fact the position of the u.s.? what would you say to that? >> i think that that would be the effect. whether the perception was correct or not is immaterial. it would be seen as being a statement that we were siding with the brotherhood against majority of the public. i am not saying it is wide majority but i think it is the majority of the public. i think it would produce a backlash. it would not yield us any benefits. that is one of the reasons i don't favor it.

>> does anyone else want to comment? >> senator menendez, you're quite correct that a lot of egyptians think the u.s. sided with the brotherhood and before that they thought that we sided with the supreme council of the armed forces. egyptians, of all kinds, whether they are secular or islamist, take a dim view because they have looked at it as having no principle and being self- serving. we stuck close to mubarak when he was in power, and then morsi he was in power. there have not been any principles motivating our policy. that is one issue. the other issue is how would egyptians react to a suspension of our aid. what the ambassador said is a danger, but this will depend on how the egyptian military will

play this. they can drum up anti-u.s. sentiment if they like to. or they could choose to say, the u.s. is suspending the assistance temporarily. that is their law, but we will see through a democratic transition. and so, it is not a problem. the assistance will be resumed because we fully intend to come through on the transition to democracy. >> first of all, to underscore what dr. dunne said, the fact is that egyptian public perceives american policy only in line with its own views. when the supreme council of the armed forces was in power, we were seen to be holding them together. when the muslim brotherhood came to power, we were seen as supporting them. now, we are supporting this interim government. it is trying to play to the sentiment of a public that is trying to sort out its own

political views will be quite difficult. one of the problems in terms of this aid cutoff question is, as you suggested, the implications. it is not just an implication defined by how the public would absorb this, or, even as dr. dunne suggested, how the military might react, but whether or not it serves our interests. they are trying to calm the situation in the sinai peninsula, which is extraordinarily dangerous, and which jihadists only from gaza but elsewhere, have fought to use that peninsula as a launching pad for attacks against egyptian and israel. they are also closing tunnels used for smuggling between sinai and gaza for the first time in decades. those tunnels are now in debt in jeopardy. the military continues to provide the support we have a

needed to move our personnel and our equipments where they have to be. as long as we have deployments east of egypt, we will require support and assistance from the military to do so. in the short term, it may be that the military could live with a temporary cutoff. we would be cutting off our own noses to spite our face. it would not serve american interests to do that. >> it seems to me the question is some leverage versus no leverage at the end of the day. personally, i believe using the leverage is an appropriate use . i also think about cutting off aid totally at this time, as some have suggested, at a time in which egypt's economy is in a downward spiral.

the potential effect of that, there may be others we will try to replace. it would mean we would have no influence. they would replace, to some degree, the resistance. it would still be a significant blow to the economy. is that an additional concern? secondly, some of the language in the appropriation bills that are beginning to move are citing three conditions for the disbursement of u.s. military assistance to egypt. one is a political process, to use democratic elections and governments that protect the rights of religious minorities and women. do you think those are the appropriate conditions and precisely what steps should the military and the interim government take to satisfactorily check those? >> first, i do think it has the potential on the economy, not

just in terms of the objective realities, but psychologically, it has some potential impact. i would worry less about the economy and more about our ability to affect the egyptian military to exercise restraint. i am worried about what the general said yesterday, that if we have little influence in the situation and they turn more to the gulf, understand one thing. the saudis, for their own reasons, they want a very tough suppression of the muslim brotherhood. they see it as a mortal threat to them. if we will put the military close in the arms, any prospect of restraint goes out the window. if part of our aim is to try to enhance the prospect of egypt evolving over time in a much more favorable direction, if we take ourselves out of this equation right now, the prospect

of restraint disappears. i agree with something dan said earlier. we are more likely to have an effect if we try to do it quietly. the more it appears in the eyes of egyptians, it seems we are telling him what to do, the more we may trigger a nationalist backlash. it does not mean we take away the potential to say things quietly or publicly. they should understand what we say in private is not going to remain in private. they should understand they do lose the connection to us and they want it. if we do it in a way that they see as too heavy-handed, it will be used against us. there is a long history here of the united states saying certain things in public that trigger an impulse. i go back to the 1960's. nasser said we could go drink

all the water from the mediterranean and the red sea. >> do either one of you want? >> yes. if i could comment on the economic crisis egypt is facing, you are exactly right. our focus on military assistance has to do with the legislation and the definition of what happens. egypt has been in economic crisis for two years since the revolution began, which is quite ironic, because if you look at the numbers before the revolution, egypt was on a significant upward return with respect to its manufacturing sector and its tourism sector and exchange earnings. they are now at a point where the gap in financing is approaching $3 million a month. in a situation where foreign exchange has been depleting rapidly, this represents a very significant crisis.

as i suggested my original testimony, there may be a need if egypt can reach an agreement with the international monetary fund, to think about emergency assistance for egypt in order to get egypt over the economic hump. the second issue, the conditionality that is being written into legislation, as one who lived in egypt for seven years, and worked with egyptians for a very long time, when i hear of conditionality, even if the conditions support and complement what they want to do, their back gets up and they become very challenged by it. i hope we can talk about these as goals we and the egyptians share, goals for an inclusive political process in which the rights of women and minorities are protected.

to the extent these become the equivalent of dictates from the united states, i think we will see pushback from the egyptians. that will present its own kind of problem for us. >> thank you. >> may i comment on this question? >> you know, i would like to move to other members. but i appreciate, maybe at the end, if other members have had their opportunity. let me, before i turn to the senator, recognize and welcome to the committee senator markey of massachusetts. he has a long history in the house of representatives, where i had the privilege of serving him. he has cared about international issues for some time and has been a leader in climate change and nuclear issues. we welcome them to the committee and look forward to his service with us. senator corker. >> thank you. welcome, senator. dr. dunne, since we have this

new spirit in the air here, if you want to take 30 seconds of my time to answer, go ahead. >> thank you. senator menendez said there is a question of some leverage versus no leverage. the united states has kept the military assistance going and has never used it as leverage. i think we are reaching the point where, really, there is not much credibility here, of having any leverage with that assistance. ambassador ross said he would be in favor of using it at a future point if there were no responsiveness. my understanding is the administration reached out assertively to argue against a military coup. there was no responsiveness. we are already at that point. >> thank you. mr. chairman, again, thank you for having this hearing. for what it is worth, i appreciate the testimony.

i do think our nation's role in egypt right now should be an instrument of confidence. we make these issues about us and what we will do. unfortunately, it is one of the great diseases we have here in washington. really, this is about them and it is about an orderly transition and hopefully moving through the democratic process. i appreciate the comments relative to that and think that should be our role as we move forward. i agree much of our advice should be happening privately and not so much divisiveness occurring here. i very much appreciate the comments regarding that. let me ask you this question. the transition plan put in place by the military, do we view that timeframe as something realistic?

>> i made a reference to the testimony of monitors coming in. if the international community, in terms of observing corrections, were to say more time were to prepare, i would favor that. i do agree with what michelle said. preparing the constitution in advance of elections is the right thing. it was important to put out a date for elections. i would like it to be guided by the right kind of preparation, above anything else. >> you think it is unrealistic? >> i am a little worried it was not necessarily realistic. the sequence is more appropriate this time than last time. i would still like the ground to be prepared and i would like to create more potential for inclusion, which will be difficult to produce. >> i agree.

i think the sequencing is good but we have the constitution is to be rewritten by a small committee and looked that five people appointed by the president. this is all supposed to happen in a couple of months. it is probably unrealistic. if egypt must have an opportunity where there is a broader buy-in than last time, it will probably take longer and involved a lot more people. >> you made the comments of the muslim brotherhood was not included. we talked with many people in egypt who say they tried to include them in this process. which is it? >> as i said, there are conflicting signals. people are saying the muslim brotherhood is included and invited to dialogue. then they got their entire leadership in prison and so

forth. morsi also kept inviting the opposition to dialogue during his presidency. they knew it was not a real and sincere offer and they had no intention of acting on that. unfortunately, this is something that is happening again and again in egypt. >> are they included or are they not and what about the transition time? >> on the transition time, we cannot have it both ways. on the one hand, we are pushing very hard for the military to truly go back to the barracks, which we all favor, and i think the military would prefer to do that, as well. we cannot complain about a short transition. we will have to abide by the egyptian will in this case. it is fast, perhaps too fast, a process that they are expecting. the whole thing is supposed to happen in four or five months as these committees go through their work. if we want the military to truly go back to the barracks, we may

have to buy in to a process moving a little bit faster than we would advise. with respect to the muslim brotherhood, the system is not going to stabilize unless some kind of dialogue is undertaken successfully. >> do you think there has been an appropriate reach out to try to reach them in what has happened and have they responded -- they have spurned it or not? >> there has been effort so far to reach out. the pushback has been there. one of the preconditions on the muslim brotherhood side is the release of former president morsi. that may not happen soon. i would not doubt there is dialogue underway every day behind the scenes, even as they are confronting each other in the streets. the question is whether or not they will find a formula that would allow the muslim brotherhood to climb down from the tree and also allow the military to climb down.

in this respect, we saw that the european union, with its diplomats, had come quite close to persuading the morsi government to undertake reforms. it may be there is also diplomatic activities going on time the scenes. >> before stepping back to the bigger picture, if i have time, we read this morning about what is happening at the border crossing. i was in gaza not long ago. to act as if there is actually border control is a joke. anything you wanted was coming through the tunnels. it was very sophisticated. all the sudden, the military has moved to close that off, a huge change in activity there. do we have any idea what is driving that abrupt, good change? what is driving that? >> it is being driven by a couple factors, revolving around the perception of what hamas is doing.

there is an area built up in egypt that hamas has been very active within egypt itself. there is a perception also that the movement through the tunnels is a two-way movement and it therefore threatened egypt and you have jihadis and they are trying to affect the two-way traffic. >> also, there is a back story emerging. a piece i saw this morning had suggested the military, some months ago, asked morsi for approval to undertake a major security operation in sinai. morsi's response, according to the article, was that he would not authorize actions by muslims against muslims. the military has been stymied in its effort to restore security in sinai. we are seeing the first effort by the military to do what it wanted to do over the past year. >> thank you for your testimony and for being here. i will wait until the next round.

>> thank you so much for this opportunity to listen to people who are experts on this. we need to hear you. so much of the situation is nuanced. cutting through that nuance is sometimes difficult if you are not familiar with it. i just would like to say, on the issue of whether aid to egypt gives us leverage, i am giving an opinion, which you do not have to share, i think all of our foreign aid, being done for the right reasons, it is still leverage. we would hope that people would appreciate the fact we care enough about them they might listen to us from our stand for about the best way to develop and the best way to reach for democracy. i would say i disagree with you.

i think all of our foreign aid should give us leverage in the best of ways. i wonder if any of you would disagree with this, that mubarak was a military dictator. does anybody disagree with that at the panel? you all agree he was a military dictator. i really think for those of us, all of us, who were stunned by the popular uprising, and if you call it the popular uprising, you are showing a bias. if you call it a coup, you are calling it another, but whatever you call it, it cannot be -- when you think about the fact that here, the people for 30 years had a military dictatorship and no rights, they are struggling to figure it out. i want you to help me figure it out, bringing all your thoughts to the table and your biases, as

we all have them. we try not to, but we might. what i took from all of this is that it was an absolute fear on the part of let's say the majority of the people there. slim or larger, that morsi was not living up to his commitment to be inclusive. that is why, dr. dunne, when you explained this temporary government is including islamists, as well as secularists, i think that is what you said, isn't that what he promised was everyone would be brought in. my sense of it is absolute fear that egypt was moving in a direction that was very dangerous and if something was not done, they would lose their chance at true democracy. am i conflating things? am i being too simplistic?

i would like to know, if you were to analyze why it happened, how would you explain why this happened after an election? i would start with dennis. >> i would say there are several reasons. i think there was a perception many of the people who voted for morsi felt betrayed. they had expected there would be inclusiveness and there was not. i think also, when all segments of society were involved, there was also looking at what was the near collapse of the egyptian economy. life was getting dramatically worse on a daily basis and there was a perception this was literally a leadership that almost seemed indifferent. what you had was the perception of a leadership that was authoritarian, exclusive, intolerant, and incompetent. it basically produced what i think was a very broad

alienation across different segments of society. there are multiple factors, but it added up to that. >> dr. dunne? >> senator, first of all, i do agree with you about our aid being leverage. a couple of times, the gulf aid has come up, as though, this could just replace our aid if we withdraw it. the military assistance the united states has extended, it means something beyond the dollars only. so it is a kind of relationship, the transfer of technology, training, exercises, and all these things. money deposited in the central bank from gulf donors cannot replace those things. there are ways in which -- >> i appreciate that. if you could now move to my question. why do you think this happened? you called it a coup.

tell us why you think this happened. >> i agreed that many egyptians felt if something was not done, they would lose their chance at democracy. my concern is about what it was that was done. the petition that was circulated, these enormous demonstrations, were asking for an early presidential election. that is not what they got. my concern is that what was done, the removal of morsi by coup and so forth, has damaging implications. we are seeing that in the streets of egypt right now. that is my concern. >> do you have anything to add? >> yes. senator, if you look at the actual voting patterns that brought morsi to office, you would see that his support was much broader than just islamists. therefore, as you suggested in

your question, there was an expectation he was going to reach out beyond his own constituency. he certainly failed these additional voters who had decided on him, as opposed to the formal general. >> i have one last question. my time is running out. i want to talk about syria. have you talk about syria. we know morsi was very very strong, had a strong relationship with the rebel forces, at least a part of them. and they were very committed and took a lot of refugees. what do you think is going to happen now in terms of the relationship in that terribly tragic situation in syria? we will start with dennis. >> i do think it is complicated

from an egyptian standpoint. morsi was received in a sense supporting the call for jihadi's to go to syria. i think the idea was they would go to syria and then come back. re-create what happened in afghanistan and what happened when those people came back to the countries they had left. so i think that drove some of that. i think there is somewhat of a retrenchment right now in terms of egyptian attitudes. i do think what the chairman was saying is legitimate, that we really do not want to see them stop being a place where people were fleeing should be able to come. this is one of the issues you -- we should emphasize in dealing with egyptians. >> a egyptian policy toward syria is in flux. it is unclear. there is a tendency to do the opposite of whatever morsi did. at the same time, the fact that the new egyptian government is going to want to have a close relationship with saudi arabia

and uae and kuwait will mean that they will want to be within that arab consensus. >> i think we will see a revival of what has been a dormant egyptian diplomacy. the foreign minister in place now many of you know quite well. egypt has always believed that it is a diplomatic leader in this region. there hasn't been a concerted effort to align policies, and you might see the leadership role in defining what the arabs can do to affect change in syria. >> senator rubio. >> thank you for holding this hearing. let's define what the goal is with egyptian policy. two of the statements really

does a good job of crystallizing the issue. promoting a representative and inclusive and tolerant government that tackles and fulfills its into national obligations, including its peace treaty with israel. egypt can only become stable once it has a system that has responsiveness and accountability and respect for citizens rights. i thought that was well stated. we are trying to figure out what u.s. policy can move egypt in this direction we can't have that egypt unless the rights of everyone should be respected. i will use an example including the 10% that are christians.

the post-morsi security apparatus which are the folks charge have not performed their role and failed to intervene and protect citizens, meaning christians and the property, despite prior knowledge. amnesty international reports on july 5 there was an attack to kill four christian and injured four more as a mob attacked their homes and businesses the tree branches and hammers while security stood by and watched. the situation has gotten so bad that the coptic pope has for three straight weeks canceled his weekly prayer for fear that the large gathering of christians would be an easy target for attackers. my first question is, in your

opinion as attacks are happening and we are gaining reports not doing anything about it, is this an unwillingness on their part to do anything about it? is it their inability because they're not properly trained and equipped to do anything about it? why are we hearing these reports they are not doing anything? there are instances of it happening after mubarak. is it because they can't or they won't? >> i have a suspicion it is a little bit of both. i think there is a question of capability and a question of priority. i think there's a question of which battles they want to fight. all of these things are coming into play right now. this is one of those areas that is a concern for us where i would like us to be able to retain some influence to try to affect their behavior. >> go ahead. >> senator rubio, this has been a long history in egypt of

attacks on christians and so forth. there has been a tendency to sweep them under the rug. to try to quiet down the communities after these things happen and to not really bring people to justice. this was unfortunately during mubarak and during the time of morsi and now. what is the common thread? an unreformed security sector. a security sector that does not a take the rule of law seriously at all basically makes its decisions on a political basis. >> i will tell you what it means beyond the morals aspect. our foreign aid programs should further our national interest. it is in our national interest that egypt be stable. it cannot be stable if 10% feels they are not represented and

unsafe if the security apparatus does not protect them. with that in mind come insisting on the should be a critical part of moving forward in regards to our assistance. it is not the need for more -- maybe you can elaborate more on this. until this issue is resolved, until 10% of the population, which has a long historical presence in egypt and a significant part of egyptian society, and other groups feel like they can be safe, you will not have a safe and stable state that we desperately want not just for the security in the

region -- they should be geared toward giving them the capacity and conditions taking significant steps to ensure that issues undermine the stability are addressed. >> senator, i agree fully. issues that you enumerated in your opening remarks are critical interests of the united states. there are additional critical interests that also have to be taken into account. the intelligence relationship and the military relationship on their counterterrorism relationship and egypt's peace treaty with israel. that is where difficulty comes. we have tried for many years and i spent many hours with president mubarak arguing about the need to find ways to deal with these sectarian issues. some had to do at local problems and others with larger historical problems.

the reality was that that regime and the current regime and the previous regime have not done enough in this regard. our dialogue in egypt has to include that. i'm only concerned about the conditionality and conditioning our aid on an important issue but only one issue. >> i apologize. my time is limited. i can only focus on certain aspects. i'm sure members will focus on others. the agreement with israel is important. cooperation is important as far as conditionality as all. i'm saying one of the conditions that should the in place should include taking measurable steps to protect religious minorities, in particular, christians. i'm worried a lot of our aid is geared toward military capacity that, quite frankly, they do not need.

why do they need to continue to send the fighter jets instead of the capacity building they could use so they do not have to stand by and watch christians be beat up with hammers and metal bars or anybody for that matter? i'm not saying that is the only condition. it is a significant one. >> thank you. >> thank you for this hearing. i think it is important that our committee be engaged as the circumstances are unfolding in egypt. as the senator from maryland, we have a personal involvement here. a 21-year-old college student from chevy chase, maryland, went to egypt to teach english in alexandria. he was killed during a protest. we have felt it personally in our state. ambassador ross, you got my

attention. this could test our patience as we continue to observe changes in egypt. i want to talk about our policies in egypt as to how it affects the region. we have talked about u.s. aid from the point of our influence in bringing about changes within egypt. i'm concerned about the impact it has on the region. the u.s. aid to egypt was basically part of an agreement reached between israel and egypt. the piece agreement between israel and jordan, the circumstances in syria have raised questions about jordan. we have seen the on and off

again negotiations with the israelis and palestinians. there has been little hope of progress being made in that direction. iran has been off the front pages, but that is an area of major concern of stability in the middle east. i would like to get your assessment as to how our involvement in egypt as it relates generally could affect the region if we were to jeopardize the flow of funds, would it weaken the commitment or the ability to argue for the adherence to the peace agreement with israel? would that be more in jeopardy or not? how does it affect the region? >> it is easy to say that the egyptian military has its own

interest and should have its own interest and preserving the peace agreement with israel. on one level it is true. we should not underestimate the kind of impulse it would create among the military to demonstrate the cost to us in having done that. i worry about what implications would be for that treaty. i worry what implications would be for behavior in the sinai. these still reflect what egypt own interest should dictate. i think if you look at the potential consequences and you think that those are adverse, you have to weigh whether you think it is worth taking that kind of step. i do not think it is worth taking that kind of step at this point. it reduces our influence to the point where i think we will regret that.

i do not want to put us in that position. i think it has a potential relationship towards what is going on in the sinai. if sinai becomes a regional focal point for jihadists, it could radiate outward. it does have large consequences. >> i have listened carefully to your point. the popular sentiment in egypt has never been pro-israel. if the u.s. were to take steps that would challenge egyptians from the point of view of their independence, doesn't that put at a greater risk the relationship between israel and egypt? >> senator, the egyptian military and the rest of the

egyptian leadership make these decisions about israel and the peace treaty and so forth based on their own calculations. the ambassador was talking about the issues of the tunnels and how the egyptian military are upset about things they think hamas is doing inside of egypt. therefore they are cutting the tunnels to punish hamas. isn't closing the tunnels something the u.s. has been asking them to do for a long time? >> i do not challenge that, particularly the military will make assessments based upon their own interest. that is understandable. my point is a popular sentiment in egypt. >> and the popular sentiment within egypt regarding israel, the positive side of this is that egyptians have been

so preoccupied with their own affairs that we have seen a bit less of the anti-israel grandstanding that we have seen in egypt quite a bit over the years. i think that is largely reactive to things that happen. >> the challenge is that the u.s. -- the egyptians perceive israel as being a close friend. the u.s. is interested in israel. conditioning aid or suspending aid -- isn't it logical that the risk could be the relationship between israel and the united states? >> israel and egypt -- i do not expect egypt to take any actual aggressive action against israel because of this.

in terms of the popular sentiment, it will depend on how the egyptian military would decide to play this. if there were a suspension and the egyptian military -- and there was a hope we would resume this aid as soon as we see -- >> 15 seconds. two brief comments. in large policy terms the constancy of the u.s.-egyptian relationship is critically important to our interests elsewhere in the region. it will impact what we do elsewhere. number two, it is critically important that we support egypt as a cornerstone of that israeli and egyptian peace treaty. there is a story suggesting israel has been lobbying

our administration not to cut aid to egypt as israel understands that would be against its interest with respect to the peace treaty. >> thank you. senator johnson. >> thank you for holding the hearing and for your thoughts and testimony. i've would like to understand a little bit more about the profile the population. it is not necessarily anti-islam ist.can you explain that comment? >> i said that because i think there is a danger of seeing egypt in a way that we would like to see secularism as opposed to islamism. we will continue to see islamist language in the

all of that. in terms of affiliation with the population, probably the best thing to do is to look at the several sets of elections that have been held in egypt and where the voting has gone. in the past, voting has indicated that there is somewhere between 40% to 70% of the population that will tend to vote islamic. it varies from election to election. that might go down with the political fortunes of the muslim brotherhood falling. islamists continue to be a part of the political spectrum. >> can you did describe that division? >> we saw the election when

morsi was elected, he won with 51 point something percent. that means that 49 point something percent was on the other side. you had polarizing candidates. you had an islamist candidate and a candidate that is associated with the mubarak regime of the other. those who stood in the first rounds of the election who might be called more centrist had not made the cut. you do not have a good test case to know how election would play itself out. >> can you give me some sort of feel of what the population is leaning toward? >> there is a broad national support for the egyptian military. it does not necessarily

translate into electoral support unless they put forward a candidate which they are unlikely to do. >> pro-stability then. -- we assume that there is 35- 35% to 40% of the population that would vote islamist for the brotherhood or the more fundamentalist party. you have that kind of a breakdown. there is a large population that is undefined and is able to bring people out of the streets to indicate what they do not want, but they have not told us their political philosophy. these are folks who brought about the many million person protest. they break down into being socialist and liberal and all kinds of strange in between.

there is called the national >> and as mucht. and is driven by tourism? what percentage? in the good days. >> in the good days, tourism and expatriate workers represented upwards of 70% to 80% of their foreign exchange income. a huge amount of egyptian -- >> it gets economy would be -- >> for sure. when i arrived as ambassador, it was after a major terrorist attack, there was no tourism. there were suffering at that point. >> the rational thing for the

population would be pro- stability. >> yes. >> let me talk about foreign aid. it is complex and incredibly unpopular in the u.s. we have to be quiet and some of our dealings with egypt, but at the same time, if we are to continue foreign aid, we have to be public about conditions and attaching some control. how do we need to maintain the type of influence most of us would like to be can provide that stability? >> dialogue takes place all the time. presumably it would lead to some understanding as to why conditionality or a set of goals are attached to legislation. pronouncements that come out in

the midst of deliberations tend to be magnified when they are reported in egypt. it does not give our administration representatives or even congressional delegations a chance to have these quiet conversations. i'm sure all of you have visited egypt have had these quiet discussions. they can work sometimes rather than a pronouncement coming out of this state department spokesperson. >> when did that obligation -- >> it is not an obligation per se. it is voted on by congress. it was an undertaking to support the keys to back in 1979. it has been renewed ever since to the tune of upwards $70 billion of american assistance both economic and military. there is no long-term commitment that has been written into legislation. >> thank you.

>> thank you, mr. chairman. thank you to our panelists for being here today. as we observe how egypt goes forward, what are the risks to the transition if the muslim brotherhood is totally excluded totally excluded and any future coalition that forms to run the government? who would like to address that? >> i think the key point to understand is that they represent an important social force within egypt. if you exclude what is an important social force in egypt, this is basically a prescription for trouble. they will express themselves someway.--

but we have right now is a reaction to the ouster of president morsi. the question is whether there can be some vehicle to bring those who are part of the muslim brotherhood back into the political process. they should not be excluded. if they choose to take themselves out, that is one thing, but they should not be excluded. it will not be easy to bring them back in. it will be difficult. i do not assume that will remain the case forever. not only are they a social force, but they have their own interest in turn influence what will happen in egypt. >> to what extent does it seem like there is some understanding or willingness? do we think that is something that the military, the current civilian folks in charge are willing to support? >> i will say that the words we

are hearing are the right words. the question is whether the behavior reflects the words. >> senator, egypt went through a period where there was a constitution passed and laws and so forth and elections being prepared a significant part of the a-day politics, the secularists, killed excluded from an objected to and it led to everything we saw happen now. i think the brotherhood is a very significant movement in and if they are excluded this time around, there'll be a cycle of instability. there is that. including the brotherhood now, you know, the goal is to cut the brotherhood down to size through arresting their leadership and

so forth and maybe to include them in some very disadvantaged conditions. they are not agreeing to that. i think there may be negotiations going on whether among egyptians are perhaps some european mediation that could bring about some agreement on this. it will be difficult. it is difficult for the brotherhood to swallow this that they elected this president and he has been removed. the way he was removed allow them to escape from how badly they failed in leadership.

>> i would like to sharpen reported that dennis indicated. i think the risk is much more severe if the national reconciliation cannot take place. the brotherhood has a long history, 85 years, most of which living underground. developing a significant infrastructure outside the purview of the state. right now they have adopted tactics that are confronting the authorities. they have decided that is the best way to build the support that they used to have. if they decide not to engage in the process that is reached, and offers real and they decide not to, they could also decide to engage in what we call and insurgents. they would have that capability not just because of their underground history, it also because this is a region where

weapons are easy to come by and where jihadist are easy to come by. across the borders at will. i do not to sound alarming, this is not a question of a lack of social cohesion. this could deteriorate rapidly. >> one of the things that got a lot of attention at the offset regarding the revolution in egypt is when the morsi proposed a law to require national security committee to approve all ngo activity. people remembered representatives who were jailed

and how they were treated. it seems to me as we think about how to's for countries like egypt, one of the sectors that is critical is the civil society were. do we have a sense of what the government is going to do with respect to ngos and society leaders? is there more that we should be doing or could be doing to support those civil society leaders? >> the short answer is we do not know yet. this is one of those areas that would be the best indication about creating a genuine political process that changes the future of egypt that creates and egypt that is representative, inclusive, and tolerant. the key will be building civil society institutions. the willingness to embrace and rewrite the laws and pardon those who are prosecuted and found guilty, i think that becomes a very significant measure of the direction of egypt and it should be a focal point of where to use the leverage. >> i agree with the ambassador about that.

i think that freedom for civil society in the media will be some of the leading indicators of where things are going and that is something we should rest on.-- press on. one thing we have to remember is that our problem about this is civil society. this is why the u.s. is not -- you mentioned the ngo case. this started under military rule. it was not a problem under morsi. this is one that one would hope would be solved now. >> having the gloom on the previous question, let me be more optimistic. looking at the composition of the interim government, their actual quite good people. graduates from the university of cairo, people who grew up with a more liberal education. it has been a significant issue. we might have a government in place that understands the respect to ngos and society importance of civil society. >> thank you. senator flake.

>> i yield my time to senator mccain. >> thank you. not to take away from my time, but we believe in the early bird rule. mr. chairman, thank you. i thank the witnesses. i want to discuss the issues that america stands for that is the rule of law. clearly morsi ignored and reverted. took hours to himself which were not in keeping with his own constitution. we have a law. it states clearly that a coup or

a degree will occasion a cut off to whatever country there is. now i see my friends here saying, well, he was a bad guy. people supported it overwhelmingly. it was very popular. elections were scheduled fairly soon. we are not in a situation much to my regret where we are asking the new government to write a constitution and have loss and respect and abide by those rules a law. for purposes of practicality or whatever reason that we might do, we will not cut off that aid.

i do not see a coherent policy. i noted this morning that we are not going to deliver f-16's. where not delivering aid, but we will not deliver f-16's. i do not see a coherent policy toward egypt. it i would those people in the streets in cairo, i would not understand it either. there is a risk. we could alienate some people in egypt where they were siding with the muslim brotherhood. the general has called for demonstrations in the street to support what they are doing. we see violence taking place in various parts of egypt. the one thing i think the muslim brotherhood knows how to do is how to pray underground.

they did it for many years and they are good at it. my concern is one, and it was a tough call for me as senator graham to make the decision that we made, but i'm not sure how we asked another country to impose a rule of law and abide by them when we do not for purposes rethink are more important or whatever. by the way, i'm glad were writing a new law that does --ndition things are properly. aid appropriately. i guess i question to you, ambassador ross, whom i admire enormously, how do you reconcile that? i didn't think of the suspension

of the -- what do you think of the suspension of the f-16's? >> the issues that you raised in the principles you talk about, i understand and respect. i think it is a terrible dilemma. the only reason that i do not favor the cut off of assistance is not because i do not respect the principle, but that i am worried what consequences will be if we do it at this point. i believe we should retain the ability to cut it off at some point. i'm afraid if we do it too right now, the effect will be in that we lose the key connection that we have with the one institution in egypt. it has some potential for restoring stability on the which is the military. we lose a significant part of the egyptian public who will read this as having been america dictates against popular will.

i'm afraid our capacity to impose the military to do things that gives us a chance to establish the kind of rule of law we would like to see take lace. >> and f-16's? >> the administration is sending a signal that there is a limited to their patients. they want the military to understand that they mean what they say. if there isn't a response, we will act. i see it as a step to send a

signal. >> i thought by suspending the aid, and fill certain things happen, which is a motivation, i respect your views and i know it is a tough call. >> senator, i agree there hasn't been a coherent policy: egypt. i agree with you on respecting our own laws regarding suspending the assistance. one of the problems the administration faces now is because they did not stand up for visible when morsi was there. now they feel they cannot stand up for it now. it seems we are piling mistake upon mistake in our policy toward egypt and it is really time to take a breath and rethink. we are not cutting off all relations. we're not cutting off all cooperation. it does not have to be that way. it would be the choice of the egyptian militant terry. i would hope they would choose not to cut off their noses to spite their face as i was required by the law to suspend aid temporarily until they come through on their promises to restore it the democratic process. >> lawyers have been jumping through hoops to fit a definition or other. i will not get into that. it takes a lot to contradict that language. >> i would say the following -- this is a young revolution.

the egyptian system has gotten it wrong twice both with the supreme council as this government and then morsi as an elected government. morsi did things that were against the rule of law. contrary to what we call a democratic process. a move that we do believe is contrary to the rule of law can actually be the dynamic that it pushes egypt to get it right the third time. >> and the f-16's? >> i do not understand them other than an immediate reaction to what was said yesterday. if that is the case, i'm not

sure it makes any sense to have done it. if there was a justification for f-16's to egypt, that justification should stand anyway. >> thank you. thank you to my friend from arizona. >> thank you. it has been an important hearing. many of my questions have been addressed. let me go to a couple of things. we need to do what is best in our own assessment of american interest. i think perceptions aren't important factor for us to consider. i returned over fourth of july and he spent time in jordan and the u.a.e. this was the time of the development of the street protest. they were strongly in favor of continuing support to the egyptian military.

i have not had direct conversations with the israeli government officials, at least what you read in the press, it was suggested that they feel the same. that has been a theme of the testimony. jordan and u.a.e. would be in the strong position if u.s. continued aid to the government, especially that military during this time? >> the answer is absolutely yes. all of them see egypt as a second filler in the region. all of them would be concerned if they saw as taking steps because they would be worried about -- >> they are in favor of continuing aid. and just in regards to egypt is different from ours. even my fellow panelists have been raising democracy and human rights and civil society and free media rights of all citizens, including christians,

these interest of hours to u.s. has, they generally don't take an interest to such issue. >> i would not characterize it as not take an interest in the issue. we have to make the right decision for our interest. the interest of close allies that we have that look at it differently -- one of the reasons they look at it differently is that they are in the neighborhood and we live many time zones away. >> the answer to question is yes. i would go beyond that to say

the challenge we have now is the one to promote democracy and maintain our significant interest and maintain the constancy of our relationship. sometimes these things will come into contradiction with one another. there is a fourth element. in some respects, if egypt gets it right this time and if we get it right this time, egypt can be the model are democratic change in the region that people have been talking about for two years. right now it is not that model. it has not yet found its footprint. it is not know where it is heading or how it will build this democratic culture. so, yes, the region will look at this carefully and the relationship is important. the payoff will be important. >> on this discussion about trying to get it right, i want to pursue some questions that

senator johnson was getting earlier.-- raising earlier. one of the things that was so obvious and inspiring about the initial protests that toppled the previous government is that significant participation of young people and a significant number of what i would characterize as secular opposition. so much of the discussion we have had today and the muslim brotherhood, it has been pointed out that there are a islamists to the right of the brotherhood. i'm not sure if it is more right or left. what about the youth movement in secular opposition? if that still vibrant? have they been as active in recent protests? they have not been able to unify under a particular banner. obvious and inspiring about the

knowing the strength of their passion -- >> well, they have not gone away. the rebellion movement, the organization was done by a very small number of young people who focused on what the recourse was. some refer to this as being a popular uprising. there was a perception that there wasn't any other option. there is still the problem that there isn't the kind of coherence to this. there isn't an unmistakable political agenda. there is in an organization geared to having that program. that is why we are the focus on building the civil society and

allowing ngos to function so that you can take what they want and channel it into more constructive and what they do want. >> yes, senator, i think the secular part of the sector has really been vitalized. they were looking toward parliamentary elections. they realize they have to do a much better job and they have done in the past and organizing. there really are differences among them. liberals and leftists and revolutionaries. they will not necessarily come together in one political force. they could coalesce into two or three more viable parties. there is a difference among them regarding the brotherhood. there are those within the secular opposition who say the brotherhood has got to be included somehow or we are in

for trouble, and there are others who are happy to see their rivals decimated however it happens and hope to reap political advantage during the next election because of that. >> we have been lamenting juror this hearing for the absence of society, but i say it is the opposite. we have seen the face of egyptian society and it is exciting. millions of people ready to participate in politics and try to have change. they do not have a positive agenda yet. they are not organized. they're not yet coherent with respect to what they want proactively. the raw material for building society as manifested. we know what it looks like. i would add within the muslim brotherhood, there is more pluralism than what is suggested

that what you see in the press. when you read muslim brotherhood websites, there is a debate going on between the old generation and the younger generation. between those who want to open up the movement. and those who don't. there's a lot going on in this laboratory a change. it makes it a very exciting time in egypt. >> thank you, mr. chair. >> thank you to the panel for coming today and expressing your opinions. i would like to get a direct response for whether you think the military to govern is a coup or not a coup. >> a legal definition? >> yes. i believe it was a coup. it is often the case with military coups. it is not unique to this case.

>> just so we have one point of view, i would hesitate to call it a coup because the military has not taken power. their actions since then, they want to see the beast or ration of civilian government. >> the reason this is important is because our law says when a coup occurs, the aid ends. we can debate whether it is a good idea to have eight or not, but the law is the law. if we decide we are above the law, it is hard to be preaching to the rest of the world about having a rule of law.

this undermines our understanding in the world. this goes against anyone who says they are for the rule of law. if you say this is not a coup because the military, there isn't a general currently running at, it is semantics and not going to the point of this. our law says if the military had a substantial involvement in replacing a democratically elected leader, it doesn't matter whether there is a general in charge are not, but putting a resident who has been elected under house arrest -- we do not know where some of these people are. this is the definition of the kind of thing we are supposedly opposed to. i was a great fan of the muslim brotherhood. but the thing is if we are not going to open a the law, if we-- wey the law, if are simply going to say where the panel says aid is a good idea and you say it should continue to you're telling us to flout the law. you are trying to say the law is not important and that basically we can decide the benefits of whether to continue aid is more important than the law. if you are coming your rising to a level where you say you are above everything for what we stand for. if the president will

not adhere to the rule of law, he will say that he creates the law. we damage our standing in the world and what we stand for. we cannot go around the world telling anyone anything. there is a huge argument you can have about whether it is a good or bad idea. if we think we are biting the goodwill of the egyptian people while they are being doused with tear gas that has been paid by taxpayer dollars, i do not think you're jumping up and down saying, yay, america. it has gone to criminals and plutocrats and dictators. has often gone into the pockets of plutocrats and gets louis vuittons full of cash and spend it in paris. it is obscene. for us to send aid to egypt and you're jumping up and down saying, yay, america.

the mubarak family used it for their own personal grandeur, you look at the history of fever week, people have taken the money and use it for their own benefit. i fear even with that military establishment, someone could rise up and become a strawman. maybe whatever i want means of reclaiming lands that they claim israel is taking from them. it is chaos over there to be sending into this chaos. are we going to obey the law? to say this is not a coup is to not have an intelligent debate from my point of view.

i would love to see or hear if there is a justification for breaking the law. if this is a coup and you want to continue aid, you are arguing for breaking the law. >> senator, since i was the one who refuse to call it a coup, i will take a first crack at responding. two points you made. perhaps this requires a longer discussion, but i think we can be proud of the billions of dollars of aid we have provided to egypt. we helped build a country that was largely broken. >> building what mubarak stole? >> and has yet to be determined that he stole money. >> it sound like the military is involved in the government.

>> that is the second part of the question. the first part, i would be happy to discuss further with what our aid has accomplished. on the second part, the system that exists under morsi provided no outlet, no legal outlet to remove presidents. the court had suspended the people's assembly, the parliament. it would have been the avenue to pursue a rule of law methodology. when the military did intervene, it was intervening on the basis of what it defined as a popular will. whatever it was. millions of people signed a petition and would put down their address and identity card number and went out on the streets and make clear that they want to see a change. i do not think it is a question

>> for the people have signed petitions against obama, if they got a general to take over the white house and forced obama out, we have a system that allows for holding people accountable. morsi's governance did not have that mentality. that is why this is a question mark. >> thank you. >> thank you, mr. chairman. my own view is that the obama administration is taking calibrated actions to elicit specific, narrow responses in egypt from all sides. i think they are handling a volatile situation in the best way that they can. i think we all understand that.

i was in egypt last march having left libya and tunisia. they were drafting the constitution. in each country there was a muslim brotherhood that was responsible in the leadership role. each one of them was clearly trying to have a class douche and that reflected their values and a history of their country. there isn't a one-size-fits-all.

they are different in each left libya and tunisia. country. each have a different history. my question to you is this -- as they begin to draft the new constitution, what is it that you would like to see included? that was not in the last one? what is it that you believe could be a consensus amongst those that were protesting? one that could be agreed upon and included in the constitution? the words in the constitution are ultimately going to determine the outcome whether or

not all parties feel that something is fair and reflective of egypt of today. do any of you wish to tell me what it is you would like to see in the constitution or what you believe the consensus would be? >> i will make a quick comment. i think the key will be the respect for minority rights and women's rights. the former constitution has different shadings in it that i think raises questions in both of these areas. >> if i may -- >> there are three points to be looking at for whether this is a constitution being developed at would help create a solid democracy was that one is protection for the rights of all citizens come equal rights for all citizens and lack of discrimination and not different provisions in the constitution for different kinds of citizens. that is one thing to look for. another thing that was absent was a rebalancing of powers among the executive, legislative, and judicial branches. >> there are three points to be the executive has been powerful in egypt. that is something egyptians were demanding. the legislature should have more power. >> that would be included in the new constitution? >> that is not really clear. it is not clear whether they

have a committee to do this. there isn't much guidance in terms of what they will do. >> i will agree with what they said. the provisions that need to be expressed in regards to the protection of women and so forth also has to be balanced off with the weight because addition to find islam. it will say that, but in the previous constitution it said it in a way that suggested to people that there was going to be a long-term process, which i think made people nervous. >> do you think there will be a consensus among those who are protesting? should that we verified so there isn't -- >> i would think for sure the

masses that came out on the streets are unified around this. whether they can translate that into the politics of reform remains to be seen. >> they could elicit a counterrevolution. >> sure. >> is that your opinion? >> yeah. >> two days ago, it was announced they had requested to send a delegation to monitor the situation in cairo.

the egyptian government claims they have never received such a request. the egyptian government claims it never received such a request. do any of you know the status of that request to have a monitoring capacity inside cairo looking at these human rights issues? >> how do you see the influence of the neighboring countries? you have cutter on the one hand and you have saudi arabia on the other hand. could you elaborate a little bit on this set of pressures that exist from the outside on the result that each seeks to achieve? >> there is no doubt that the saudis have immediately come in to provide support for the new

government and for what has happened. the fact that they pledged $1 billion and have already begun providing the assistance, they clearly see this from their standpoint a strategic course they want the new leadership to look effective. it's interesting, cutter had provided a lot of money and the question is whether there is rethinking on qua tar's part. >> let me have a follow up. do you think we can solve these human rights problems if we don't have the u.n. on site to document what is happening so there can be an evidentiary discussion about who is being harmed, who is being prosecuted and persecuted? is it necessary to have the u.n. to do that work? can we get a quick answer from each of you please? >> on this question there has to be some kind of international engagement whether at this time u.n. or others and egypt has been quite resistant to this. they see this as interference in their internal affairs. but there is danger of escalating human rights violations.

turkey is a major player here is one who has a difference with saudi arabia and the others in terms of whether the removal of morsi was a good thing. >> do we need to u.n. in? i think we do. >> egypt would be well advised to say yes. we're able to do through our embassy to do what we can. but the legitimacy of the united nations would help egypt. >> you need international observers in there. >> we have a vote and you've been very resilient here. one final set of questions. one is what happens we 30 years almost since the camp david accord funded egypt? is what happened to mu bar recommend a coup? >> we can get into the legal definition of this and i'm not a lawyer and maybe i answered more quickly than i should have. there is a larger set of

strategic issues we have to keep in mind when we evaluate these issues. that's why i've said from my standpoint we need to be able to protect the assistance right now. >> what mubarek was also removed by a coup. but he was not democratically elected. >> i find it interesting when we pick and choose talking about the rule of law because if in fact mubarek was a coup then assistance to egypt at the based upon the view that it was a coup would have been suspended. and while i understand, doctor, your comment we assisted the regime.

to split the hairs when you have national security interests that i think are prevailing but i think about when we choose to say that the rule of law should be observed and when not. and so it depends what your strict definition is at the end of the day. what could be the offer of reconciliation? we talked about the importance of having an all inclusive egypt, an egypt for all. what could be an offer of reconciliation that would bring the muslim brotherhood back as part of an egypt for all?

>> there are two issues that are paramount and probably not doable. one there would have to be an end to the arrest of those in the brotherhood. those who have broken the law should stand trial but these have been present i have arrests. number two, inclusion of muslim brotherhood representatives in the government. make room for them in the administration. the one that is not doable is the restoration of morsi as president. so they are going to have to climb down the tree on that issue. but perhaps the other issues might be incentive enough to enter into a dialogue. >> any other thoughts on that? >> no. >> is it possible to envision an egypt for all when you have this tension between secularism and islamist who seem to want as at least morsi when he was in power seem to want to have the country move in a direction that is different than what a greater part obviously as a result of this uprising of civil society wanted to see. how do you reconcile in the

effort to have an egypt for all with those who want to see embedded in the law a almosts of a religious point of view and those in society who want to keep religion maybe as we consider it in the united states separate and apart from its government, how do you reconcile that? >> one of the things i did as ambassador was invite people in our civil rights missouri to do lectures in egypt and that was to help egyptians understand you have to start somewhere on the path to real democratic governance but it may take time and very hard effort. so the answer to your question is yes it's possible to envision an egypt in which secular tensions are abated, the rule of law is encompassed. but i think it's going to take time. we're at the early stages of a prolonged process and it's going

to require not only their parings but also our patience yens as a friend of that country. >> it takes time for mutual adjustment. and they are going through a period now where there is such a high degree of polarization where it's difficult to adopt that mind set. but if you can build a process geared toward reconciliation, over time this is something that can emerge. >> i think the role of religion in politics is something they will have to work through. it was very tightly controlled and islamist could participate in a slight way. then after mubarek they probably went too far in the other direction. they will have to work out some sort of argument that everybody can live with and where they can

be air competition. >> thank you all for a in-depth analysis. i think you've given us a lot of insights. this hearing is adjourned. [captions copyright national cable satellite corp. 2013] [captioning performed by national captioning institute] >> an update on egypt and the political crisis there. they are able to continue to detain the former president. egyptian state media says, charges are pending of conspiring with a palestinian group to attack police stations and jails. senatorheard from

menendez in a hearing yesterday. the obama administration says it does not have to determine what happened in egypt, whether what happened in egypt constitutes a coup. that could affect u.s. aid to egypt. take a look at some of what happened at the state department earlier today. >> do you concede the reputation is thereby department -- tarnished? to see them as unique situations, therefore you do not have to do make and it -- a determination about whether it is a coup. the military in any other country could decide they will go ahead with removing a legitimately elected president because there is no longer a fear the united states will couple military and economic

aid. >> i refute the notion this was a loophole. it was not. it was reviewed by our lawyers and determined that we did not need to make a decision or determination about whether or not this was a coup. the second piece i would convey is that i do not think it would come as a surprise to anyone that our own national security interests related to regional stability, the voices of millions of people are all factors. every scenario is different. we are continuing to review. we do not anticipate we are going to make an evaluation here. that is not what i am suggesting. but we are continuing to review our relationship as it relates to aid with egypt and that is ongoing. convey know, i would that to anyone who has concerns about the announcement that was made. >> [indiscernible] you keep emphasizing you do not believe you are required to make a public determination. have you made a private determination? >> this is related to our

public determination. >> but have you made a private determination? the law does not say public determination. it says determination. if you have a determination of any sort it seems to me one could plausibly argue it should follow the law. >> thank you for your analysis. we have determined we do not need to make a determination. >> public or private. >> yes. was just some of today's state department briefing. you can find it in its entirety online at c-span.org. turning to capitol hill, the house will be back in tuesday at noon for general speeches, 2 p.m. for legislative work, and build housingo programs as well as a bipartisan compromising bill on student loan interest rates. the latest bill was approved by the senate on wednesday with a vote of 81 -- 81-18. they will resume work on a bill

to find how -- transportation and housing programs. the beginning of the week, we will see the nomination of james coney,, and he is up for the director of the fbi. we will also see three other nominations in the senate. national labor relations board. you can watch the senate when a gavel back in on our companion network, c-span2, and the house right here on c-span. >> the treatment of hunger strikers at guantanamo compromises the core ethical values of our medical profession. the ama has long endorsed the principle that every competent to refuses the right++óóóóóííí. medical intervention. the world medical association and the medical -- and the red course has determined force- feeding through the use of restraints is not only an ethical violation but contravenes common article three of the geneva conventions. my concern is, let's just set aside the numbers that you might or might not feel you can safely

push out. number, an unknown number, but the president apparently said it is 46, that you can never try. thatu honestly think people behind me and the people who are, in telling this for the will stopwwwwwww the prisoners justwwwwww because they are now in the united states? --the fear-based ardentwwww to keep guantanamo baywwww open is hard to understand. brought toggóóóóóóóó prosecution, incarceration, orñ medical treatment, the detainees would pose no threat to our national security. the 86 men who have been chilled transferwçççççççççç should be transferred. -- as weind lawfulçççççç have done in every conflict. this weekend, on c-span, the senate committee on human rights

looks at the inclination -- implications of closing the guantánamo bay prison. saturday at 10:00 a.m. eastern. also at 10:00 a.m., on c-span, live from the roosevelt reading festival. and, live on c-span three's american history tv, president obama and defense just -- defense secretary chuck hagel. that is also saturday morning at 10:00 a.m. we look at energy consumption here in the united states.

host: we are looking at international energy. our guests are frank, -- with the center for strategic and international studies. headlining today's wall street journal is says the u.s. sees a boom in global energy use. the world will use far more of every type of energy. the u.s. energy department said that an energy will drive current consumption. start off by telling us why we are looking at this. host: it is important to the u.s., priorities on a number of fronts. the environment, energy

security, our environment and energy consumption is going to grow by 10% after the year 2040. the world's energy consumption will be up more than half over the same time. host: why is this so important to the united states. give us more details about how that the sec -- affects our planning for our energy usage. guest: in d expenditures are one of the highest portion of consumer budgets. consumers are paying relatively high prices for fuels, particularly petroleum, right now. italy -- electricity bills have stayed relatively low. the impact on the consumer budget is rising. oil prices have created concerns. it is worth understanding the issues that drive that. host: you can call us as -- at 202-585-3880. if you are in the mountains, call us at 202-585-3881. why is it important to look at

u.s. energy consumption and where it is headed? guest: we are competitors, but we are also allies. you use energy for everything you did. you turn on the lights, run your electrons, cars for u.s. energy consumption and transportation. -- run your electronics, cars for transportation. the emerging economies -- in the past, 70% of our demand was met by the developed world, as you would expect. as populations grow and energy intensity increases in the developing world, emerging economies are switching back. ebay growth centers are asia, the middle east -- the big growth centers are asia, the middle east, africa. the prices are global. host: adam sieminski, we see some of the key findings.

world energy production is expected to increase 56% by 2014. u.s. consumption grew by less than 10%. u.s. consumption pick up is going to be in a number of guest:. electricity consumption will rise and fuelling consumption will rise. we believe coal will hold onto most of its market share over our protection period. automobiles are getting more miles per gallon.

that will allow petroleum and liquid fuel consumption to come down over time despite the fact that there will be more cars on the road. host: frank verrastro, what does that mean by you -- what does that mean to you? guest: we have gone to a service-type society. we can be more competitive. there are great opportunities. host: will we be more reliant or less reliant on foreign resources by 2040? guest: we will be less reliant. there is this big chasm between and a lot of infrastructure investment has to happen. a lot of above-ground issues

that we frequently talk about. host: as we look at opec production, it is predicted to, mainly from the middle east. that is the growth area. why is that significant? guest: there are three different countries in the middle east that have big oil reserves. saudi arabia, iraq, and iran. they are key members of the opec organization. the future of oil production in countries like iraq and iran will drive considerable production. there might actually be too much production. they might have to decide how to divide up their market shares. host: we look at this graphic.

the nine-opec production is concentrated in the -- non-opec production is concentrated in the united states. tell me about this. guest: in brazil, and oil is coming from what they call the pre-salt to a logic formation. in canada, it is the oil sands. in kazakstan, is typical oil production. russia is one of the biggest countries in terms of having the same kind of oil shale resources we have discovered and exploited in the u.s. in places like north dakota and texas. host: united states is predicted to have this growth. here is 2010 and here is 2040. what do you read from that?

what are you watching for, frank verrastro? guest: production in the united states is on shale oil side as well as conventional production, offshore production. we thought u.s. production peaked in 1970, and you are looking to be risk averse. demand was growing, resource was scarce. now we have totally flip to that. we have the highest production potential in 20 years, the number one or number two gas reducer in the world -- gas

producer in the world. we could be the number one exporter at the end of the decade. major transformation. >> let's go to the funds in here from our callers. >> it appears one of the things we might do without increased production of natural gas is to use it to produce methanol as israel is planning to help compete against the rising price of gasoline. it is also a fact that china has been reducing methanol and using it in their cars. unfortunately, there process is polluting because it uses coal to drive the process. there happens to be a patent from johns hopkins that uses a clean coal process that produces twice as much methanol because it does not burn the coal as a chemical process. should revisites the alternative fuel act and give methanol a chance to help us that the fuel pump.

>> the exploration of what can asdone with alternate fuels an ongoing activity in the u.s.. there have been lots of things happening. to 10%, essentially with the gasoline supply coming from methanol. experimentation with biofuels and diesel fuels. methanol is one of the possibilities but so far, the costs have been higher than the number of the alternatives on the way. the long-term projections, we see quite a bit of fuel in brazil and the west, -- and the

and in coal, as you activity going on. our numbers say that by 2014, even with a bit of progress in this area, it will represent less than 4% of the world's supply. >> sworn and as the u.s. energy administrator who over a year ago. thew report from international energy outlook that says 2013 is taking us to decades to come. that the surge in natural gas production is a great boon to get natural gas of some form into the transportation sector. because of the price disparity,

people are looking at natural gas, liquids, a number of different ways to do this with fuel cells. because oil is more carbon intensive, you get more miles per gallon. as you dilute the pool, it is -- it might be cheaper, but you get your mpg. thist's take a look at map of shale oil and their potential impact on the world energy market. >> they just published an update a few months ago that looked the global shale gas resources. at tried toed understand what was happening

with shale oil resources. is thereave concluded of shaleous resources oil and shale gas. russia and the u.s. had significant resources on the gas side. the major activity underway right now and both of these areas is in the united states. there are a lot of the above- ground issue is slowing this down outside of the u.s.. based,e not resource which is found below ground. but economic, policy, and social issues.

things like land ownership, environmental issues, having the technological skill sets to do the problem. is north america, you can see resources from alaska down to canada. that peak color is without an themate on the resources, picture globally. taking my call. is, where with the general public find the easiest resources to understand the emissions that go into the atmosphere and the ground coming from coal or nuclear? it can be very complicated and

difficult to understand why. have to balance the economy with a good environment. but where can the general public understand and get this information? that is a layout question for me, eia.gov. that is the energy information website where you can find an onrmous amount of material history, statistics, the forecast. we have quite a bit of on the use of energy and where it comes from, some of the environmental side effects. found the things that we

is carbon dioxide emissions. peaked in 2005 and has been coming down. we have them rising slightly over the forecast had time to 2014. but never reaching the peak that was hit in the year 2005. it is pretty good news because the emissions are a stand and for many of the other pollution issues associated with energy use and the fact that it seems to be under fairly good management gives me quite a bit of hope in terms of your question. does energy intensity mean? >> think of it in terms of efficiency.

you can't be able to increase productivity without increasing energy usage. it is kind of the reverse of that. the u.s. has got a pretty good job moving into information technology, and we have been able to reduce our footprint in that way. emergingping to see economies make that change as well. we have seen japan be relatively flat. if you do that, you can improve the efficiency around the world. >> the main point of that is to explain what the major drivers are for energy. we show there is that gdp

is a huge driver of energy use. prosperity is rising so sharply in the forecast that it is growing faster. that total consumption is on the way up. we see that the good news of economic growth coming in the has a higherrld energy consumption. this brings us back to the original question.

>> we see the gdp in orange. >> is getting a lot better. they are going more miles and we are seeing improvements. it is under way. the change is structurally as you move from manufacturing.

ultimately, what will happen in china and india will see that in global energy. >> the center for strategic -- a welcome. >> time is short and i would like a yes or no answer to a couple of questions. >> i don't believe there is a gasoline shortage. do we have enough gasoline in the united states to sustain us? >> i want to make sure you're asking about gasoline and natural gas.

>> they can sustain us, right? >> and ask for your car comes from refining crude oil. the reserve base for crude oil was improving very dramatically. time is limited but this is really important. in 2005, we were importing 60% of our liquid fuel. that means that the u.s. --

no gas shortage, why are we paying so much per gallon? >> let's ask frank for that. is a globalt market. prices available, i would argue that it is fully supplied. if you look at syria, iran, .raq, there is enough

it is still a globally prized product. >> oil prices were closer to 127 or $128 a barrel. that is different from where prices are now. a barrel and20 were 50 cents a gallon on gasoline. the prices could be even higher than they are now. reduce some of the geopolitical tensions, i think gas prices can come down. >> do you have a comment?

i look at it this way. thiswe need to acquit on point, [indiscernible] we had plenty of oil and plenty economy. >> so quit working with foreigners and rely on our own resources? how realistic is that? >> the u.s. is already a net exporter of coal, things like gasoline. could be an exporter of natural gas and in another five or six years. we are moving in that direction. we need to look at the

international energy outlook. we are in a trade environment where things that happened outside the u.s. impact our pricing here. even if we were totally independent of imported oil, we would still be part of the world oil market. >> ed has a tendency to draw a circle around the invited , we have a production problem.

>> christopher in california, welcome. >> it is being harvested currently in our lot of areas right now. it doesn't seem to have a lot of disastrous effects. i am kind of nervous. this is the first time i have called in. why should we do that

when there are so many options available to us? i sought a ted talk about the possibility of a high altitude the cut flower of the united states. other needs that are just as essential. .hat is my question >> air response for r christopher, the environmental safety of air and some other alternatives. skill and ability, the forecast still talks about fossil fuels predominating. there is a rise in solar, wind, and new research going into renewable.

so you need to keep that system robust as well. i would urge a little bit of caution in gasoline. the iconic seen in gas land is where the person lights his tap water on fire, and the fact is that he drove his water wealth through a coal seam, it has nothing to do with natural gas production. i would be careful that some of this is entertainment and i would explore the fact a little bit more. >> it is very important, as you've indicated, environmental impact get managed. policy committee a few years ago to look at the impact of hydraulic fracturing.

the conclusion of this committee that industry thought had been stacked with too many environmentally oriented people. that there were potential problems. they said those problems could be dealt with pretty effectively as though protect the environment. one of the things that you have to keep in mind is that no activity is without risk. have -- we know that there are disasters in coal mines. we know that there can be issues associated with natural gas and the release of methane, for example. that our well people's our economy,

lives are positively impacted by the use of energy. it ends up being a trade-off. give statee to do is and federal officials the right tools to be able to continue to manage those things and i think it can be done. >> i have several points if you will indulge me, please. we have one of the largest oil refineries in our town, and when theiras put here, representatives from major car manufacturers down here. it was called standard oil back then.

feel that the car manufacturers and oil are in bed together because europe has produced vehicles, mercedes-benz being one of them. people have invented carburetors systems that can help us have better fuel economy. the other thing as far as what we can implement in this country, we also have a waste problem in this country. disposall-scale waste plants that generate steam that can be turned around to produce power. >> there is a lot of progress already being made in fuel efficiency. numbers, the

incorporation of the fuel by the epa andds the department of almostrtation show of all of 1.5 million barrels a day. that is around 8 million for 9 million barrels today. of effort still going on in terms of the technology and fuel consumption in the u.s.. we are making quite a bit of progress in electric and hybrid vehicle areas. they are selling vehicles there, and we can see that making a bit of progress over time. complement's, one of the things that you want to keep in mind is one of the

reason that they have smaller cars and better fuel mileage is that they tend to be $8.90 dollars a gallon there. there are not very many people pushing for that kind of price outlook. i am pretty sure that everybody will be looking for the 50 mile per gallon cars. fairly moderate gasoline prices over time with the new fuel economy standards. a gallon like 47 miles by 2035, things are not getting better here. >> renewable energy and nuclear power. we can see them including biofuels and projections out to 2040. watching?ou

mostlywals right now is power generation. move thatent you can in the transportation and beyond, the nuclear issues have been interesting. in that time it takes to permit, we have not built one even though we have the largest in the world. it has hurdles to overcome. what is available to us right now, just going back to the car issue. to turn over that fleet to see the efficiency to a cold. the fastest growing energy in the u.s. over the next 30 years and wee wind and solar,

also see pretty strong growth in natural gas. the fastest-growing fuels will be renewable and nuclear. aboutf those growing at 2.5% a year. for basicetty good fuel. very strongly in places like china, probably russia. for the u.s.. the forecast is to have a few more nuclear power plants in 24 the then today. is kind of more power coming from existing facilities that a tribute to that as well. betterew plants and power will offset the retirement.

>> it touches every fruit and vegetable, she thinks it would be the most patriotic thing people can do to recycle and decreased energy use. some opinions coming in on our feet. to west virginia. a few years here in the mountains you're hunting and turkey hunting. you can see the wind turbines often the distance. on thehad this locally river bottom. i have friends that have had to build a around their house because there is an energy source that is not being looked at.

back in 1980, there is a graduation party in the woods. however out the hydraulic driven, it generates energy from those pomps and in return, charges the batteries. >> one of the most effective way substituting for gasoline in cars his hybrid electric vehicles. engine thatasoline recharges the battery along the ideas of what you said. i think they are pretty looking.

alike seeing that, it is fast-growing opportunity in the u.s.. work one done a lot of where wind and biomass opportunities are. it starts in texas and runs oklahomahe long state's right there. we are taking your advantage of that. u.s.e administrator of the information administration and also joined by the senior vice president for politics, the center for strategic and international studies. >> will talk about the federal health-care law and what it

means for americans. will answer questions about the impact on consumers and insurance. that is washington journal monday morning at 7:00 a.m. eastern. and tonight's starting at 8:00 p.m. eastern, if national intelligence director from national intelligence university. a round table on the state of the u.s. economy. and secretary of state john kerry and the un secretary from a security council meeting. will take a look at a portion of that meeting now. this is the african great lakes include thespeakers special envoy to the legion. forledged $1 billion

development programs. this is about one hour and 40 minutes.

>> the 7011 meeting of the security council was called the order. supporting the great lakes framework. objection, the agenda is adopted and it is my pleasure to warmly welcome the distinguished secretary general, ministers, and other distinguished representatives in the security council chamber. everybody's participation is an affirmation of the importance of the subject matter under discussion. under rule 37, i invite the representatives of belgium, burundi, the republic of the condo, mozambique, south africa, and mozambique to

participate in this meeting. that under the provisional rules and procedures, i invite the president of the world bank to participate in the meeting. it is decided. i welcome the doctor who is joining me today from washington. i invite mary robinson, the special envoy to the great lakes region. under rule 39, these rules which i am enormously familiar with. tonvite his excellency participate in this meeting.

it is decided. i invite the executive secretary general to participate in this meeting. it is decided. begincurity council will the consideration of the second item of the agenda. i want to draw the attention of councilmembers to the document, the report of the secretary general and the implementation .f the cooperation framework i also want to draw their attention to a letter dated july 3, 2013.

addressed to the secretary general. before you is a statement by the president. thank the council members for their very valuable contributions. in accordance with the understanding reached, i take it that members agreed to the statement which will be issued .s a document it is decided. my privilege, an enormous privilege to make a statement in my capacity as secretary of state for the united states of america. i will begin by saying how

genuinely honored i am to be united join you at the nations presiding over the as a secretaryl of state. also a privilege to chair the security council, a challenge central to the mission of this organization that is realizing the promise of peace. long, far too many lives in the democratic republic of the condo and the broad great lakes region have been ravaged by targeted to protest the violence. they have been subjected to human rights abuses and the region has been disrupted by dangerous instability. witnessed today underscores what we already

know. it is a stark reminder of what fills the vacuum. governance,of good decent government, dignity, those that violate basic standards of decency. to remind all of us of the obligation that we all share. not only to end the killing, raping, forcing of children and to combat, the devastation and the fear, but the obligation to establish a lasting peace. so, we create a space for productivity and partnerships. and for the birth of a new generation of stability. we can actually prove to the

world that all of us working together at a time where many people are doubting the capacity of institutions to function, and they doubt the capacity of leadership to solve problems, we can prove that we can make a difference. the seeds of this process have already been planted. our job does not end with the creation of a framework. that we create a vigilant, accountable, and cooperative effort to see those grow into a full-blown peace that is sustainable. to recognize our partners in that effort. i think the secretary general for his personal engagement. the world bank

president, we're very grateful for both leaders and the institutions that they lead for the novel partnership that has been providing incentives for political progress the creates stability and improve infrastructure. boosting regional commerce in the short term is one path to realizing stability and security in the long term. i vaguely are all very hopeful this approach can succeed in the great lakes region and serve as a model for other areas. i just say parenthetically that in the west bank in palestine,

we are beginning to look at a similar kind of model to hope we can combine our efforts to find new ways to build sustainable peace. i want to thank the un special envoy mary robinson. friend, somebody i have admired. and i reiterate support for her ofk in the implementation the security and cooperation framework. we welcome the priority she places on local communities and civil societies as we seek to break the cycle of violence and break down barriers between humanitarian aid and the people desperate for it. i met with the best to just a

few weeks earlier had fled the de arce after an attempt on his life. -- drc after an attempt on his life. he has had the courage to protect women and children from the weapons of war that too often people only talk about in a whisper. they protect and treat those people, and all the people in that region desperately need a voice. know that the secretary general knows that mary robinson is committed to being that voice as they address the full range of issues involved translating the broad principles of framework into a concrete bench mark for implementation. thank you for what you're doing.

we are grateful for your continued public service. it is a great pleasure for me today to introduce all of you. to introduce the u.s. special envoy. the suffering in the great lakes which we are going to debate and talk about today is a high level priority for president obama and for me. it is one that we believe must be met by high level leadership. worked in the united states for several years with senator fine gold. onre is no one more trusted his expertise of african issues. i am very pleased that he has

consented to take this on. greetingsng you the of the former ambassador of the united nations that asked me to give you a warm good morning and hello. we spoke briefly so i could get the latest on what to do and what not to do today. the united states joins every single one of you in welcoming the peace, security, and cooperation framework. step an important first but we also recognize the february isce extremely fragile. the key question before all of us today is whether the commitments prescribed can be kept or will be kept.

or will they be destined to live on paper? states stands ready to support signatories and we will work with energy and persistence in order to implement the framework. be followeds to through. i want to make it clear that the united states is deeply concerned about recent reports support,ternal presumed external support as with fdlr.laboration all parties must and their support for armed rebel groups. all governments must hold human rights violators accountable.

that has been rampant. the united states welcomes the deployment of the brigade and we support the mandate to neutralize all armed groups and protect civilians so that peace can take hold. believe it is time for everyone in the region to exercise restraint and returned to the path that you have set out for yourselves to move forward together so we can address the causes of this conflict and and it once and for all. i believe is the absence of governance and the absence of an international presence that has created a vacuum that permitted people to act with impunity.

easyw moving ahead is not and takes courage. but we have to accept that this is our responsibility. a nation that has a stake, i people to take thentage of the opportunity framework provides. respect the national sovereignty and territorial i can't emphasize enough how critical it is that everyone fosters cooperation across borders. everyone to adopt area ining the

september. voices that have too often been excluded, particularly those of women. and we challenge them to continue implementing reforms and reestablished state authority in the east. we pledged to join the security council and the international community to do everything in our power to achieve a comprehensive peace accord. understand us here the complex history of suffering in the great lakes region. but we all have a responsibility to ensure that a history of violence is not going

to be followed by a future of vengeance. the only way to properly honor the millions of lives that have been lost is through peace. the only way to achieve that peace is through the united nations and other countries with the capacity to step up and help show the way forward. thank you for the privilege of sharing a few thoughts with you. i will resume my function of serving as the president of the council. >> distinguished members of the security council, ministers, thank you for attending this session. excellencies, ladies and gentlemen.

coming to this debate and for the secretary of state for presiding. that a test of importance the united states places on this important issue. and russ feingold as a representative for the great lakes region. i wish him success in the critical months ahead and hope that he will continue to coordinate with my special envoy. months sinceive the cooperation framework for the democratic republic of the .ondo and the region , the cyclical of

violence has ravaged them over the decades and the previous peace initiatives. it will mean a new chance for development and lasting security for some of the most sorely tested people. all parties need to return as soon as possible. i have called for maximum restraint and asked them to individually respect the coming months. past attemptsrted to find political solutions to the entrenched problems that continue to drive the conflict.

the structure reforms will help address the root causes of the violence. the government has taken initial and atowards reform national dialogue. it is essential to translate these commitments into tangible results. at the regional level, they must defined work together to a common agenda for lasting peace and prosperity. each sovereignty and territory. the security corp. framework provides a clear goal.

continuel envoy will to support the full commitment that they have had over the years under the framework. willecial representative support the political process and support it implementing the commitment. remain better than they have. supporters are active, including militias that have shown an inclination for a peace process. them, it isorcing an important tool and is only one part of the comprehensive

approach. however, while the united nations can't do much, we provide -- depend on others to provide an essential foundation. conflict and lawlessness have developed extreme poverty. and for lasting peace, we must also provide opportunities. and the great lakes region. may, [indiscernible] committed ank has

additional $1 billion of health and educational services, and for economicity integration. i am going to work closely with them and other areas. this is essential to building trust and interdependence critical to the peace, security, and cooperation framework. it will not deter us from our objectives. it should make us even more to count on them to

work constructively with each other and with my special envoy to develop benchmarks. the roadmap for the endorsement , the general debate in september. i call upon them to use the tools at their disposal for criminal prosecution. has describedoy the security and cooperation framework. i urge them to keep that hope alive. very much mr. secretary general. i give the floor and the video

screen to president of the world bank. much.nk you very honorable ministers, un member states, i would especially like to thank the u.s. secretary general. you are the leader of the multilateral system and your strong leadership on this issue is what is giving drive an impetus to our work together. we look forward to continue to follow your lead and playing our role. i want to thank you for your leadership over decades. i would not be here without your support. want to thank the secretary general and the special envoy.

those that want to make a special point to make it clear, the u.s. special envoy is a person who has been deeply committed to africa. of workingmy years with senator fine gold -- feingold, working on malaria programs. i recognize the work at the group needs to be aligned with political realities on global, national, regional, and local levels. i will focus on peace and security and outline what the world bank is doing to support the framework. we visited the great lakes region earlier this year, the

first time in history that the president of the world bank and the secretary-general of the united nations travel together on a mission. the choice of destination and timing was not an accident. it provides all of us with an opening that lays a foundation of a more robust economic development. we deliver one message over and over during our trip and i will repeat it now. we can't have development without peace. years ofverse development. of a a good example tragedy with an immense human cost has gone on for far too long.

over 2 million children cannot benefit from education. the poverty rate is -- energy is very limited. sustainability will not be achieved without addressing the underlying key economic drivers of conflict and stability. they spill across the borders, andlation displacement, they have population growth. they demonstrated the commitment to pursue peace,

stability, and development in a comprehensive manner. >> on our trip we committed to increase the cooperation between our institutions, and our other partners such as the european union, and the regional economic community. will strongly support the office of the secretarial desk 's special envoy. alsoorld bank group will provide an extra $1 billion over the next 12 months for cross- border issues.

most of it will be for hydroelectric power plant logic. other portions will be for transportation infrastructure, and the rest for water infrastructure. this directly impacts the millions of refugees within the borders. we will also provide basic health services for boulder willamette angela. academic and power meant -- economic empowerment for women all play important roles in reducing violence. we will also expand our regional networks, and share expertise.

this has been mary successful to date. in two weeks, our board of directors will consider the first project in this initiative. a hydroelectric dam. this will create significant economic opportunities, and also create jobs. i'm convinced that regional approaches and messages i have outlined, will create cooperation and integration throughout the region. we are under no illusion that this program will be enough. our assistance contributes to a larger mosaic of development drop the region. we are leveraging private sector investment. we also have large energy projects that are critical to the region, and need to move as efficiently as possible on smaller projects. feelis so that they can the candle benefits of peace. in the coming months, ira

iculture,-- agr schooling, jobs, must move forward with all urgency and speed. the u.n. offices will be guided by the principles of quick wins with longer-term results. with the african union commission, and the united natis serving, participants agreed on these approaches. they agreed immediately on several steps, including amassing partner assistance. also creating accountability and follow-up mechanisms. finally, when the secretary- general and i traveled to a

hospital, we saw women who had suffered from violence, and the healthcare woman's -- personell who cared for them, we heard horrible stories. we should harden our commitment to the framework agreement, and we must not let this continue. what happened to these women, what is happening to williams of people -- millions of people can't in the middle of conflict in the drc, should not continue. we're tired of conflict, we have had enough, peace, peace, peace, all of these were seen as messages. women, as wethose assure you, we are in this for the long run. benefit all of these women, and those who have been robbed of austerity in this long

conflict. in this longurdy conflict played -- robbed of prosperity in this long conflict. thank you. you. i thank i hope this model can be a solid model for the future. i will not give the floor to mary robinson. >> thank you. honorable ministers, excellencies, i am honored to speak to you on this important occasion. i to thank you -- i dlo thank the united states for posting, and to john kerry for providing such a strong statement.

i look forward to working closely with all of you. as we have heard, this high- andl meeting on the feingol drc the great lakes region comes at a timely moment. on, andlict has gone bios, and, injuries, the sexual assault on women, are taking their toll. the fighting must stop, and all parties should assert maximum restraint to keep further covered from happening. special anderved as

voy much more than four months and i'm not a day goes by that do not hear of reports of killing, and rape from the drc. what strikes me is the lack of outrage and horror at this daily toll. it has become the accepted normal. it is not normal, and not acceptable. we committed to zero tolerance of gender he -- based files. -- violence. the people lined the road with signs asking for peace. this framework is a promise for peace ande --

cooperation. in support of those violent parties that are -- that are contrary to our goals. this will be a report and tool with a robust mandate -- an important tool with a robust mandate. the stark reality is that those responsible for the most of this ongoing conflict has always been the civilians. secretaryes, as general said in his remarks, hopes are high in these theitutions that signed framework on the 24th of february. you, the distinguished members of security counsel adopted this resolution in march.

the framework clearly gives the ownership and the us possibility to the leaders who signed this. i personally very encouraged to see their commitment to it is strong and resolute. if fully implemented, the drc would hittion 2098 the ground, and pave the way to address the conflict. i strongly believe that the , and thees international community as a whole need to work intensely together to accompany the leaders and people of the great lakes to transform the framework of hope to a reality. despite the security humanitarian challenges -- security and humanitarian challenges, i am encouraged by progress in several areas. is ratedhe strong will

by the signatory countries to keep up with the limitation of this framework. let me show you those positive steps that they have taken since february. at the national level, president kabila established in may a mittee to -- com oversight -- to provide oversight in this framework. at the same time, national have agreed the drc to implement need to begin in earnest. they also need to be enforced by the international community. the drc and the international conference of the great lakes initiative to an

keep the illegal trade of substances under control. + the regional level, the 11 place, and took establish a committee to measure the benchmarks of progress. the committee is made up of senior representatives from the signatory countries of the drc who have met so far twice. they met under the co- chairmanship of my special advisor, and the african special representative for the great lakes. this also included senior officials from the u.n. department of local affairs. i'm glad to report that the

committee has made some progress. these may still be improved, but they are specific, measurable, achievable about relevant, and time bound. with a clear indication of response abilities. with this important immediate mandate, the regional benchmarks provided critical information for national benchmarks. i want to thank all the members of the committee, and of the region, the respondent positively to my request to each 2.1 of their advisors to represent them in this work. i will present the but march marks develop a community to the leaders of the region's in my next meeting in nairobi, kenya. in the meantime, i will of course continue on station with all of those involved in the

importation process of the framework to ensure that the benchmarks meet the mark. things took place redundantly that i would like to share with took place things recently that i would like to share with you. more than 100 world leaders from theatory companies of remark attended the conference. a moverecall that i made to create a top-down and bottom- up approach. to work with the people of the region to encourage development. it was important to listen to the rate lake's women's

perspective. they represent the majority of the population in that region, and are the worst of of the ongoing conflict. i gave them the opportunity to create possible benchmarks which were later submitted to the committee for consideration. surprisingly, the technical support committee is entirely male and its composition. i would continue to encourage women initiation in that committee. as resident kim mentioned, the second meeting took place on the 18th and 19th of july. the african union, the world bank in my office worked on approaches for the development of the great lakes with regards to the framework. we worked on finance and

economic landing. planning. room to be a very good form forum forsion -- discussion. participants noted that the regional cooperation, and the infrastructure and trade could rot for economic inclusion and create opportunities for disadvantaged groups and women's groups. it could strengthen agreements by delivering tangible results. with energy, transport infrastructure, economic development, and social sectors, all would be infected. -- affected. i want to thank all of them for their commitment, and support of

the and the addition of the framework. in terms -- it turns the framework into a vehicle for development and peace. remind all of us of the millions of people on the ground or eagerly awaiting the change. newave the power to try avenues for peace as ability in the great lakes region. theve further elements of implication of the frame it, don't on three key pillars. elements of the strategy would include sustained confidence of the measures among leaders in the region. joint efforts with the international partners to support the international dialogue process. border develop projects with strong development in civil

youth and women's groups. within the limits of my mandate, with strict compliance with international law. fully aware of the challenges of the governments in the region and the security counsel face. restore peace and build hope for the future in a complex environment. the strategy and the councils involvement in the region will bear fruit only if all actors involved on all levels push in the same direction. this, let me reordering, there is an immediate cessation of hostilities in the region. another spaceate for dialogue, and support for tough decisions. we need to tell each other the truth, quietly if necessary, but

firmly. having conversations with leaders of the region, and i continue -- and i intend to continue when i meet them in nairobi. keep the great lakes region high on your agenda. -- let me conclude by warmly thanking all of you, as well as our international partners. --r continued to some part continued support of my work, i am very grateful for. >> and you very much, special envoy. they do for your briefing, and thank you for your work. isi know senator feingold looking forward to working with you. i now give the floor to his

excellency lamamra. greetings. [speaking foreign language]

>> i now give the floor to his excellency, the minister of foreign affairs in uganda. >> thank you mr. president. general -- secretary- general, and other distinguish members. thank you for organizing and presiding over this important and timely debate. i would also like to thank mr.

, and for the commissioner's involvement. need to be more involved in the security of the drc in the region. the region has been involved in efforts for a resolution in both in politicalrc efforts. it was in this context that the region consume neutral

, and theonal forces intervention were great. we come to this sentiment by the u.n. site. general-- u.n. secretary- , the importance of pursuing a political solution. the approach made by mary the talks,ncluding helps us to find our aim at a lasting solution. we are looking forward to the

meeting in nairobi on the 31st of july, 2013. the commencement of the talks between the different groups, ,acilitated by my colleagues uganda's missile defense, who is with me. we believe the talks between the governments provide the best opportunity for preserving the framework. priority iniven creating a police also lose in -- a peaceful solution. we will not have the quality of contribution in other ways in the drc. there has been some progress in groups.s with two key

they have reviewed the peace agreed on it and limitation. -- it's implementation. presenteds have agreements which concern negotiations. while the efforts are commendable, we need greater commitment to the talk. we need to speedily consumed the talks -- conclude the talks. we need the international community to revive logistical support. president, the renewed

fighting between the countries is a major concern for the region, and the international community. during the last three weeks, , and ae been attacks convoy was ambushed. over 66,000 refugees have found their way to us. this uncertainty caused by groups, leads to break down on a large scale. reminder of the

realities faced by the region. committed to the stability of eliminating the threat and is our expectation that we can provide security reform within our capacity to these are -- groups. president, with the region, andr the parades a unique opportunity for the region. in our view, the following three elements of the framework are crucial. it provides a holistic approach as the best way to refine security. thenvalid actions at

national, regional, and local levels. thirdly, and most important, it emphasizes collective efforts eu, ande u.n., the others. we therefore reiterate the need from thetments regional and international communities. experience, regional initiatives with this part of the international community have proved the best results. the nexus between these and governments remains to be seen. need initiatives in key areas, such as the already spoken

.f in uganda will follow through on the pledges we have made. hasmany years, uganda theed for refinement of causes of the conflict. we seek to be authoritative over the territory. now is the time to redouble our resolve and efforts in addressing the root causes of the complex in the drc. at the summit to be held in nairobi, we will review the initiatives, and the actions

being undertaken. thank you very much. very much, your excellency. we appreciate that, and i hope you will convey our gratitude to the president. i know you're defense under -- you're defense minister is here, we appreciate your attendance. am least to give the floor to the foreign minister of affairs in the democratic republic of the congo. mr. president, mr. secretary general, members of the security counsel. like and foremost, i would mr. president to reiterate to you my warm congratulations to your appointment as secretary of

state of the night states. -- united states. i am glad to see you preside over the security council at this critical moment in history, and thank you for showing the create thiso meeting. seen cyclical conflict that has the same genetic signature. the same designers, the same external support, the same actors on the ground, and the same motive. same action, the summary executions, the pilots and rape, the seizing up private and public assets, and a quotation of natural resources.

you bear witness to the importance of the government of the united states, and the ininvolvement this region. i want to thank you for the implementation of this framework agreement. this frame at agreement and constitutes098 true imitation and honest understanding of the conflict in the region. for the long-suffering people of the countries in the region, the framework agreement and the aforementioned resolution are

seen as "really to the instability which has lasted too long. and to which my country has paid a very heavy price. it is also true that the most recent joint trip of the president of the world bank and the secretary-general of the , we are verys thankful for. recall the sad reality which is often unknown, to which, -- to wit, that conflict myated country has lost more than 6 million of its own. with this loss, we see a tragedy which is unequal in the history

of mankind, and which can leave no one in different unless mankind loses its soul. our meeting today reflects our .ill to reaffirm our humanity to together assess, without complacency, the level of confusion and commitment undertaken in order to put an end to this. in the terms of the very ,ignificant framework agreement in order to restore lasting peace for the region. so that i can devote its energies and intelligence to key questions, improving the living conditions of people. congomocratic republic of is determined to share its level of responsibility so that peace and harmony can return to the region rapidly. --soon as the fremont

framework agreement was signed, the government and its efforts to the filling its obligation. many of these tasks have been underway for the last 11 years. they have been seen as important, and priority. with this in mind, we have not work on these task, but

also the priority goal of enforce a task force to the state authority. all benefit from a powered he manner incapacity building. this will make it profitable for them to -- progressively take control of the institution. to institution is closer becoming a reality. reforming management of public finances which has been underway for several years now, has led to a number of positive results in the stability of the macroeconomic framework, and we see it being used and new -- --cessfully and lamented in

implemented in cleanup measures. this will strengthen economic growth, which, notwithstanding, is one of the strongest in the konica man has been on a constant basis for the last 10 years. has better, the government just begun an in-depth examination of the document for the strategy of growth and to reduce property -- poverty. in order to parse a leap -- to partially take up for the lag, more credibility will be given to this. strengthening and the region are more than ever a priority. that is the national follow-up ordination mechanism. competentrusted to a

and experienced high-level member of the opposition. nationalendent electoral commission has been completely overhauled, and a new team, which is tougher and more takenive, with has -- has the helm of this very significant support. the new electoral commission is prepare the hard to electoral process for, under the best hostile circumstances, local, provincial, senatorial, and governor elections. the president of the republic, national publications will be held in the month of august. the goal is to seek together the means to strengthen national cohesion. to better meet the challenges before the people. to be inclusive, this forum will

bring together national, institutions, all invited. this will also have significant resignation from women and youth. -- recognition of women and youth. it is also entrusted to the president of the national assembly, who represents the majority. proof of the participatory nature of the sector size -- of this exercise is the filing of a document of proposals. deposited with the president of the republic. ,ach of these republic reforms

due to the framework agreement, benchmarks have been developed -- exchanges are being held with regard to the benchmarks with mary robinson. we would like to reaffirm our support and cooperation with her. we are prepared for the upcoming 4 meeting coming up to september. people inre here, the our region live in fear and uncertainty due to sporadic attacks, in defiance of this resolution. they have been launching attacks against our defense positions. to justify their

accusation -- their attacks, they are levying unfounded accusations against us to undermine us. those responsible and the united states have already responded to the accusations. ae president has circulated document to the security council to refute these allegations categorically. he ascended to the president of this in your cart -- of the security council the same document. careful examination of the documentation which we have provided you will show clearly the magnitude, quality, and byciency of the work taken fdlr.c to combat the

it is noteworthy that a positive evaluation was certified by evaluation -- evaluators. seem to be reneging on their signature. it is also worth noting that no country within the region of the great lakes has as much as the the creation of a brigade with the mission of neutralizing all negative forces, and to grant an offensive mandate to this brigade. it should also be clearly understood that the democratic republic of the congo, more than any other, has a people who has been suffering violence due to the presence of foreign armed groups on its territory. not entertain the notion of any cooperation with

those forces who stand out due to their killings, their rates, there violence of all nature. natural resources, and public and private assets. weis my major concern, that have never wavered, and we will entiree to receive the territorial integrity of the region. now to the involvement others elements of the in light of what i have said with regards to the integrity and sovereignty of others in the region. inis our opinion they are violation of the human rights, this case has been brought to

court, and the members who are severely will be punished regardless of their rank. turning to the allegations of , andbuse of prisoners investigations have been launched in order to establish the truth. justice will be just as the offenders if they are convicted. i should underscore that these allegations are surprising, to say the very least. ofprising, because this type human rights violation in the past had been established as something undertaken by the rebellion, and those responsible . it would be the first time in 15 years that in fighting these rebellions, the regular army would be subject to such accusations.

that is what we can say about the credibility of them. note,esident, as you can the democratic republic of the congo has made significant rugrats and implementing it -- has made significant progress in implementing its commitments. the deployment on the ground of brigade ision -- clear progress, and we appreciate it. our desire henceforth is to see the grade swiftly and transmissionegin from theits mission security council. neutralization of all negative forces without occlusion. we are aware that the military

force could not alone resolve the complex east equation of the great lakes region of africa, work out the conflicts and disputes that are all interlocked with each other, both external and internal. almost all of the negative forces of the region, force is neck. force is necessary, but not the only solution. we must have application of good faith, and the conclusion of these parties should be implemented in we name -- implemented. we remain that our experience , rebels who for the most part, been recycled into this new group, and keeping

with our resolutions, we could sign an agreement that would reintegrate into the armed forces people were subject to judiciary action, or international sanctions due to massive violations of human rights. to do that would set the stage for another breakdown of peace and stability. mr. president, the suffering of the past, which no one is ignoring, and no one is minimizing, regardless of the wounds, regardless of the horrors, could not be indefinitely something that is lumped in with out escape. we must emphasize reconciliation within our state. geography compel us to it. so do survival and lasting and sustainable development.

the democratic republic of the congo will not give anyone the least square inch of its territory, nor will it give a any of its sovereignty or wealth. tois however prepared today conclude a covenant for peace and stability and development in the region of the great lakes as a whole. to developn mind, regional cooperation. others before us have been able of even knowing the proof situations similar to ours, they have been able to, and capable of renouncing the imposition of definite vengeance. currentosperity and understanding should be a source of inspiration to us all. the people of the great lakes , like of africa have those around the world, a right to peace and prosperity. by reiterating our

congratulations and gratitude to you, i have faith in the wavering -- unwavering determination of his excellency, the president of the republic, to work for sustained peace in the region. >> thank you. >> thank you, i appreciated those last comments, and the abortion -- the importance of your statement. will give it over to her excellency, the mystery -- ministry of affairs in rwanda. >> thank you very much mr. chairman. honorable ministers, and distinguished delegates. let me begin by thanking the united states, and you, secretary kerry, for convening this most important debate in support of the peace security and corporation remark, and for

the presidential statement just adopted. allow me also to thank the ki-etary general, mr. ban moon, as well as dr. kim. i would also like to thank mary robinson, for your valued contributions this morning. taken together, their extraordinary efforts, exhausting travel schedules, and financial commitments to regional development priorities aptly demonstrate their sincere commitment to peace, security, and corporation remark that we are discussing this morning. -- framework that we're discussing this morning. it is a visionary strategy to instability in

the region. regional efforts undertaken by the african union toward timing peace in the region, i also acknowledge the president of honorable ministers of our region, and from several council members. rwanda welcomes the special envoy to the great lakes region. as well as the new fourth monusco. of tole rolando is very pleased

support your statement. to see the efforts of the region included in the statement, particularly in support of our peace talks. been established under the auspices of the international talks of the region. talks, without any further delay, we need to move likely toward pacifying the region. her engagement would be a welcome and helpful contribution to moving forward. today, mr.hered president, out of a shared desire to make peace in the great lakes region a lasting reality. devastating conflict within our own borders,

even as much as two decades ago, we have seen travesty. we are a peaceful and thriving nation, but we are also aware let me put it in the clearest possible terms. in order to secure a long-term peace for the one that in the future, we need a peaceful and prosperous democratic republic of the congo. as long as conditions persist that allow more than 30 rebel with -- roam with impunity or as long as men and boys see nothing in their future eon crime, such a future will be beyond reach. this hope along with original he's efforts open a special door

to this kind of profound change and is needed for the drc our entire region. for one that is eager to do its part and live up to its commitment as a neighbor and regional partner, as well as through this framework of hope. allow me to late out some actions my government has taken so far in implementing this framework. relocatedsarmed and away from the drc border more combatants as a result of infighting in march 2000 13. in his report, dated june 28, the secretary-general commended rwanda for the role it played in that regard.

we have asked the united nations to take responsibility for these combatants and it is important to note that wanda cannot bear this burden alone. we invite the international community to devise and implement a long-term solution or this group of former combatants. rwanda has also worked with the united nations to accommodate roughly 70,000 congolese nationals who have sought refuge in or want up for more than 30 years now to take the necessary make sure they return home as soon as possible. the secretary- general mentioned in his report of the implementation of the framework, the government of your wanda reported the-- ofnda reported the presence several members across the border from the democratic republic of congo seeking refuge

in rob wanda, including you and sanctioned individuals. went and -- 23 leader surrendered to the u.s. embassy in march, earlier this year, rwandan authorities offered authentication for his transfer to the hague to the u.s. and dutch embassies in kigali. we can agree that the economic components of the framework must be implemented alongside its political and security aspects, and to that end, rwanda is working to boost economic cooperation and cross-border trade with the drc and other neighbors in the great lakes region. just last month, rome one. mining authorities seized 8.4

metric tons of smuggled minerals, and are in the process of returning them to the drc authorities, and that has been the practice in the past. while also exploring several other opportunities for economical operation, including a strategic bilateral project with the democratic republic of the congo on our shared lake. rwanda supported and has been facilitating the deployment of the intervention were grade, and we did so because we believed it could help pacify the region and serve as a strong deterrent against the multiple armed groups in the theern drc, allowing protection of civilians to be carried out and critically create the space necessary to implement the peace and security

framework, as well as facilitate other regional peace efforts. president, as a special envoy mary robinson has said in the past, this framework is a successndeavor, and its depends very much on each party living up to their respective commitments, and i take the opportunity of this meeting in this chamber this morning to reiterate rwanda;s commitment to this framework. we are one of the 11 countries who make the expanded joint verification mechanism, by which developments in conflict affected areas examined thoroughly and with transparency and accountability. we therefore urge the security council to attach volume to the jointf the expanded

verification mechanism and for their findings to inform the decisions we reach and resolutions we agreed to. -- rwanda remains seriously concerned. the security council has received a letter referenced from my government with details, so i would not repeat the specifics here today simply to say that it is a concern that needs to be addressed. any alliance between the fdlr and the drc as a threat to security, we will not allow these developers to d real our commitment to this piece as we have done in the past. i cannot stress enough rwanda's

goodwill and support for the peace, security, and cooperation framework. we believe it offers a realistic path to lasting peace and security for the people of the democratic republic of the congo and the great lakes region at large, but we not -- we must not veer off course and must understand that this vision is only achievable alongside regional peace initiatives, as well as genuine political will on the part of all affected states. further, the international iscekeeping force in the drc forging uncharted territory with the deployment of an intervention brigade as well as a manned aerial -- must takekeepers great care to respect all relevant international laws and adhere strictly to their mandate. consequences of

instability in the eastern democratic republic of congo fall more heavily on rwanda, as has been the case in the last 20 years, we are eager to take full advantage of this historic opportunity for peace and security and despite the serious risks i have outlined this morning, we can see early signs of progress that are not unmistakable. plan -- a plan without action is just words, and when it comes to the eastern drc, there have been enough words. there has been enough speeches and report writing, and there has been more than enough grandstanding, especially by unaccountable actors who see profit and publicity from the region's misery. it is time for such forces to move aside and allow the movework of hope to

forward. this is the time for accountable parties to stand up and step forward and now is the time for action. i thank you for listening to me. more news from the u.n.. the security council had a meeting with syrian rebels in an article. they met with the council to get russia to end its support of the syrian government and to talk about the war. the council has been deadlocked on syria. russia and china have blocked the you and from taking action against the assad regime three times in the past. he will turn back to the u.s.. the director of national intelligence gave a commencement address at the national intelligence university. the university has a chartered to prepare personnel for senior positions. it is the school cost 50th anniversary and also the

director's -- his commencement address is 25 minutes. [captions copyright national cable satellite corp. 2013] [captioning performed by national captioning institute] there is a lot of people out here that will receive bachelors and masters degrees today, but i would want to re-emphasize what was just said, and i would say she has got a doctorate in the national anthem, and that was one of the most beautiful renditions of our national anthem. i would just like to give her another round of applause. i do not know where she is at. that isery much to -- quite alright. they usually start out like that every time i talk. for everybody that has got kids or families, there is everybody

on the stage and all of us has gone through these ceremonies. one bit.rry about kids we appreciate them being here today. i wanted to say good morning to the graduates. dr. ellison just said was right on the money about where you will be in the future. major all reach a milestone in your careers and in is my honorof niu, to congratulate congratulate you. in the presence of your families and honored guests and our great staff and faculty that we have that really make this institution what it is, you are all graduates as has been already said of the national intelligence university's 50th anniversary class. that is an extraordinary feat for where we are today, and i would like on behalf of everybody here to give you a round of applause for achieving this milestone.

mentioned, thes institution has grown in size and impact during the first 50 years, from humble origins at defense intelligence school, housed in world war ii barracks station, has to naval to an accredited university that offers degrees and represents the entire community. this is a university that is expanding the literature of intelligence everyday with publication of books and research from the national intelligence press. it is a university that engages leaders in common dialogue. it is a university that continues to produce the future leaders of our profession are and our nation. mark the occasion of our 50th anniversary by reading recognize for the nation's most senior leadership for not only the high quality of

the education offered, but for the joint nature of that education. this past october, general jointy named niu a official military education phase one accreditation program, the first to receive disapproval since before september 11. completion of military education is an important to remodel some for our military officers and necessary for future promotions and assignments into our joint force. this past february, as the ing that tohighlighte come he clapper had took similar action by designating those that are attending the full-time masters jointm as joint duty and duty qualifying a sprint for civilians. this is a big deal. tremendous opportunity

for the workforce as they advance through their careers. without that accreditation, about the joint duty assignment, you cannot make it into the senior executive service of our intelligence profession. that is a huge shift and another moniker for this university as it continues to some day have people sitting in the position of director clapper or the director of our fbi calling of each other as past classmates, trying to solve complex problems. these milestone achievements highlight the fact that this university is doing exactly what it should be doing, integrating intelligence for a more secure nation one student at a time, while graduating leaders who will lead within our armed forces, the intelligence community, and across government for many years to come. , i can assureer

you that this institution has both very deep roots and very bright futures. to achieving way your vision of becoming the center of academic life for the united states intelligence community. to the class of 2013 thousand 13, congratulations, and very well done for choosing what you will walk across the stage to receive today, and i would like to give them another round of applause. you should be proud of yourselves, you have tackled a challenging field of immense proportion and immense importance to our nation. quickly reviewing a list of the thesis topics you can tell how this class has covered almost every corner of the globe, from china, iran among north korea, the middle east, india, africa, philippines, latin america, to hear in the united states covering some of the most vital issues that we wrestle with in

the intelligence community everyday, issues such as terrorism, cyber threats, counterintelligence, space, drug drug trafficking, human trafficking, and general instability, and so many others. it is a complex world. as our nation will face daunting security challenges ahead, i'd have full confidence used dunes are ready to assume the mantels of leadership leadership in your organizations. the common bonds you have formed throughout your joint study here are crucial. remember each of you is a force multiplier for integration and collaboration, which are the keys to avoiding strategic surprise and providing our national leaders that vital decision advantage and confidence they require. i challenge each of you to carry s culture of integration as you moved your next station. i challenge you to mold the intelligence community and to the organization that in each to be for our nation is the future. it is fitting that on this event

of the 50th ever street of this fine institution we're joined by some of the most distinguished members of our profession, including director clapper and our former international security assistance force and u.s. forces in afghanistan commanded general john allen, a graduate of the class of 1984, and i would like to give them both a round of applause. it is an honor to introduce our commencement speaker, the honorable james clapper, the fourth director of national intelligence. he has a long and the track record of support for intelligence education and is a special friend to this university, as has been highlighted. as both director of dia and the national spatial intelligence agency as well as the undersecretary of defense and now serving as the fourth

director of national intelligence, there's no one that has served our nation and continues to serve our nation during so many trying times that director hopper has done. from his first serving our nation as the united states marine, during his time as a young air man in vietnam, throughout all the difficult times our nation has faced over the past five decades of peace, war, and conflict, while many do not know -- what many do not he servede mid-1990's as an instructor teaching aids -- teaching a course, knowing he would go on to ship this great institution. that is very true, amazing. little knowing that he would go on to shape this great institution that the community has become and to lead that tens of thousands of women and men who make up our tremendous workforce. erector clapper was awarded an niu iny doctorate by

1992, and it was through his leadership that this institution became the national university. on behalf of all the men and women in the united states intelligence community, all of you that are here, i would like to thank you, and i would like to present to you, to the audience here, as he gets up here and provides the commencement speech. ladies and gentlemen, director clapper. >> thank you very much. theuld not be reminded of screaming child that was escorted out, and i am mindful of the fact that the younger members of the audience are unimpressed with this whole thing. [laughter]

i recall a long time ago when i securityld airfares headquarters in texas, the time i was there every quarter we would run a big parade for retirements. , one bunch of lieutenants of whom was me, got together and said why don't we run this thing because we are closer to marching and these field grade officers. when the lieutenant vance took care of the parade over, i got to be the perpetual adjutant. having one of these parades and the point where the adjutant comes up to the commander and said, the greatest that -- the parade is form, and my daughter was sitting said,wife's lap, and she hi, daddy, at the top of her lungs, and the crowd broke up, and i am trying to stand here and act very military, i will

never forget that. thanks very much for that very kind, gracious introduction. when we speak together, we are testifying in front of congress. [laughter] that is quality bonding time. ladies and gentlemen of the 2013, staff and faculty of the university, and let me mention also the particular hero of mine is general john allen, and at the asked for ag it, i round of applause for john. it is a pleasure to be here, and

to have the family members here, even the ones that are not too impressed. they do not often get to participate in something in what we do. to address thed classes of 1992 through 1995 when i had the honor of serving ofdirector, and the class 2007 i was the undersecretary of defense for intelligence, but this is my first time. this is the best part of my job, adding a chance to congratulate members of the intelligence community for their competence. add onto that i get to welcome you back into your jobs after your vacation here. we have been waiting for you, to put your new superior knowledge to use for a safer america and a more secure world. this month, as was indicated, myks the 50th anniversary of commissioning as an air force second lieutenant. was theoincidental

first class of the brand-new defense class was graduating. both our titles have changed over the years. dis became the defense intelligence college, where i taught as an adjunct professor, and the national defense intelligence college, and now it is most appropriate the national intelligence university. director, at to as least in polite company, and had been called general, colonel, etc., and back when the marine corps asic training, i was called several things there, which i cannot repeat in mixed company. as we developed over the last 50 years, i like to think we have gotten wiser with those name changes, at least niu has. i want to take a moment to commend president ellison and

the current staff and faculty for all they have done, and particularly for ellison's passion and leadership. so i asked for a round of applause for david ellison. niu is becoming worldwide respected institution. with a dynamic and visionary plan. it is not all high in the sky. you are integrating intelligence which is a big thing to me, one student at a time, and that is you ase i.c. needs from graduates. i salute you for that. as they say -- this is an exciting time to be in the intelligence community. most of us would prefer a more boring time, i know i would, but that is not an option. we live with threats from terrorism, nuclear

proliferation, ciber, and competition over natural resources. i would go so far to say that as a nation we face more diverse any timeow than at during my 50 year career in intelligence. shrinking budgets have added to the danger, because it is not realistic to think we can ever do more with less. we are going to do less with less. we will just have to identify and manage risks were closely than before. there have been challenges throughout my career. in my first combat experience vietnam,i and -- in and i will go be going back there next month for the first 1966.ince i left in i'm looking forward to that. intelligence automation in the pencil,map, a grease and to corporals. even when moving quickly and headed to desert shield and light storm, we have come

years since then, even with all the improvements we made then, particularly in imagery, and --e/11 changed everything 9/11 changed anything. the prevention act which was a growth of 9/11 called for greater integration. i felt that was a natural thing for me to take on in this job. the sum is greater than the parts. to produce better products for our policy, our decision-makers, whether sitting in a foxhole or the white house. i i think that calls for integration, with horizontally andoss the so-called -- vertically now, the added responsibility we have for attending to state and local and tribal partners. a couple words on budgets. after a decade of growth 911 in the intelligence

community touch. every year we got more money. now we are in a different mode. we have been through this before. this happened in my time as director and hopefully we can profit from that experience and apply those lessons learned, and as we constrict ourselves, we will do it smarter than we did in the 1990's. we have still important priorities. i have about five, but i will mention the most important one, which are represented here today, and that is our people, which is in fair play our most valuable asset. it is the people who will have the ingenuity, the drive, and the innovation to figure out ways to get around and obviate, mitigate these reductions. other challenges, i will not go into detail, but the recent nsa drama, crystallizes some

conflicting demands on us as intel professionals. a need to safeguard our citizens lives, a duty to share intelligence information, irresponsibility to protect sensitive sources and methods, and an imperative to protect american civil liberties and privacy. and meld allronize these competing forces simultaneously. and we should preferably do it out of the limelight. we serve our nation, and for us that his satisfaction enough. now we are at the part of any that alwayspeech makes me cringe, which is giving advice for the future. this will be really short. realize once you achieve gi eezerdom, people expect some pearls of wisdom.

if this qualifies, but here are five rules of thumb i tried to subscribe to. now that you have made all these great connections with classmates from every part of and government, it is time to think beyond your organization. you need to build those strong as the president alluded to the phone call between the phone call of the director of the cia and fbi, and that works, so i need you, the most recently educated, to understand the concept of intelligence integration. do not confuse integration across agencies with making every agency and organization into the same bland oatmeal. integrate across organizational lines to take advantage of the diversity as represented in this class and the strength of different organizations with their unique capabilities. there are things about stovepipes, cultures, and

tradecraft that are worth preserving. that is a term used pejoratively, but also an important capability for us. do not gloss over problems, meet them early and head on. bad news is not good at her with age, but the key part of leadership is recognizing when a mistake is made you need to correct the situation as quickly and thoroughly as possible. .ry to stay calm under pressure it is right there on the cover of the hitchhikers guide to the galaxy. do not panic. be kind. it goes a long way, much further than you realize. do not neglect your work life balance. family and friends help you you get there. you want them to be there for the rest of your career when you retire. physically yourself and mentally. a strong body and a clear head arch is central to clear decision-making. city six years ago today, president truman signed the national security act which department of the

air force, cia, and joint chiefs of staff. he signed this ultimate aboard the douglas sky master c-54, which in the day, instead of being air force one, was called sacred cow. as an expression, a sacred cow is something to do that so much reverence it is immune from criticism and that everyone is reluctant to change. that is the way it has always been. we cannot think that way in our business. with one stroke of a pen, truman's changed our u.s. national security and how was organized. there will be many more changes in next half century since he signed that document in name and and organization and otherwise. both the national intelligence university and each of you will continue to improve with age, just like fine wine. another great president,

theodore roosevelt, said old age is like everything else, to make a success of it you have to start young. you might notice i think about these kinds of philosophical musings. best of luck to all of you, and many, many congratulations. it is a proud day for you and your families him and i am proud to serve with you as we work together to keep this country and our allies say. god bless all of you and god bless america. thank you very much. show this again tonight at 8:00 p.m. eastern time right here on c-span. and also this week and a member the senate intelligence committee, ron wyden, will be a guest and will talk about the nsa program. a preview. >> the bipartisan and vote for support for the amendment in the house this week, part of the

appropriations bill, are you working on a similar proposal that democrats and republicans in the senate? >> i am working with that affect with- i'm working democrats and republicans to overhaul the program dramatically, and there have been a number of discussions already. senators on both sides of the aisle, and the discussion has accelerated since that extraordinary house vote. we have already a quarter of the united states senate on record saying they are very interested that areng the issues central to this debate. that is the reason we assisted -- insisted on getting answers. the answer to your question is yes, you will see a strong and bipartisan effort in the senate to pick up on the work of the house and to fix the problem that i think needlessly intrudes on the privacy and the liberties of millions of law-abiding americans. part of our

newsmakers segment which airs sunday, 10 a.m., and 6:00 p.m. eastern time. this is a website, it is the history of popular culture, a collection of stories on the history of popular culture. to say pop culture, it is quite more than that. what i have been trying to do with this site is go into more cultureith how popular and sports ands other arenas. it is not just about pop culture. about populars music, we have sports biography, mediae some history of entities, newspaper history, so

there are a range of things. when i formulated the site, i -- purposely cast a wide net to see what would work. >> or with jack doyle sunday at c-span. the u.s. chamber of commerce and aarp hosted an event about retirement landing. the first speakers we will hear from our the executive vice resident and the ceo of putnam investments. they will be followed by a panel discussion on saving for retirement. >> good morning, i want -- i am randy johnson, senior vice chamber off the u.s.

commerce, and thank you for coming today for the form of moving ahead without leaving anyone behind. it says something about where we are in the state of washington these days and people look at the chamber and aarp are doing something jointly on a friendly basis. can i use the words screwed up. we are all in this together, and -- providedrvaded an important role in providing retirement. we are all in this boat together. , we can fight the good fight, but we often join with nontraditional allies, unions on immigration reform, civil rights community on negotiating changers of the americans with we justties act, and had a big event yesterday at the

chamber celebrating those achievements. i would like to use that as a model for how we will cooperate with aarp on important retirement issues. i used to think retirement meicy was not important to and i woke up one day with great hair and i realized i got to start thinking about this stuff. both personally and a matter of policy. when you think about 10,000 people waking up every day and retiring, it is scary, but amazing, but a lot of people are in that same boat. fact, 865 and over population is expected to double in size within the next 25 years among so by 2030, 1 out of every five americans will be 65 or older. you compared that to the fact that there are only 3 million people over 65 in 1900, and that obviously means we have a situation on hands and we need

to try to solve it or not, and if we do not solve it in terms of providing means for increased savings for people across the spectrum am a he will have a problem. that is why i'm grateful to work with aarp. i am a card-carrying member. looking at these statistics, there will be more members in the future. hopefully get some to join the chamber, too. let me turn it over to the executive vice president deborah whitman. thank you, randy, and good morning. on behalf of aarp and 37 point 5 million members, i i want to thank the chamber of commerce and all of you for your interest in learning more about ways to improve retirement savings in america. today we are putting the spotlight on the dangerously low level of savings that many

millions of middle-class americans, as well as more moderate earners, have accumulated for retirement. unless we do something about it, the lack of a sufficient nest egg will meet hardship and downward mobility in old age for much of the american public. while we are hosting this at the national press club, it is not the kind of crisis that often dominates the news. and people are, increasingly concerned about their own future and the future of their family. we hear this from our members, and for the last two years, aarp has spoken with more than 10 million americans age 50 plus about their concerns on health and retirement security, through an effort we call you earned to say. they sent us a clear message. a woman named joy put it this way -- i am concerned about

eating able to afford medicine when i amnecessities older. i do not see the possibility of retiring. these words are backed up by statistics. consider this -- in 2010, four out of 10 families headed by someone age 45 to 64 had nothing set aside for retirement. think about that, nothing set aside for their retirement. four out of 10 older americans. even when we look at all families with retirement savings, half have less than $44,000 a year saves, and that is simply not enough, especially as people are living longer into past 80's, 90's, and even 100. the growing fear that you will run out of savings before you die looks very real for many americans.

for many, the golden years will not even be bronze. costs havem care increased, the cost of two retirement has become much greater than what people are saving over their lives. i will give you one more statistic. according to fidelity, a 65- year-old couple never tires needs savings of $200,000 to cover their bills. the course we are on is troublesome. ways to ease these dangers and improve the long- term outlooks for working americans and their families. today aarp and friends at the chamber are highlighting three strategies that can make a difference in these standard of living for retirees. first, we need to expand access for individuals to tax-deferred

payroll deduction retirement saving plans at their workplace. right now only about one in two workers has an option to roll in a planet were, and many employees do not bother to enroll even when they have the chance. more employers offer their workers the opportunity to save for retirement, and we want more plans to enroll workers automatically. we can't go further than that. we want plans to increase workers'contributions automatically because we know making savings automatic makes it easy and can have a huge impact on how prepared workers are for their retirement. we also need to keep and strengthen tax incentives for people of all income levels. importantly, we need to improve incentives for those that are most troubled savings histories on their own.

it is also important for people of all income levels. ofneed to do a better job educating the public about the importance of saving and how much they are going to need in retirement. we want to have people to have a clear understanding of the potential costs a face in retirement that can easily last 20, 30: or even 40 years. that includes the possible cost of long-term care as well as healthcare costs they will have to pay out of their own pockets. alsoublic should understand that social security benefits are modest come averaging less than $15,000 a year for older beneficiaries, and in some cases much lower than even that. helpis why we must all workers to understand the importance of personal savings to supplement their social security. taken together we believe these three strategies can make a difference in americans lives and america's future. as everyone in the room knows,

people in washington disagree on a lot of things. the importance of a secure retirement should not be one of them. the value of being able to retire with peace in mind and dignity is recognized across ideological and partisan lines. because it is something all of us want for our family members and for ourselves. that is white aarp and the chamber are here today with a joint statement. who knew we would find something we could agree on, randy? our organizations have different missions, but we see the need to strengthen retirement security and see that before the bait aimed at solving this problem. my hope is that by working together to focus attention on this issue we create a safe place for the president and congress to come together and develop real solutions. today we are hoping to start a national conversation about responsible, commonsense ideas

to solve this problem, because like some of the problems our nation faces, the lack of retirement savings is one we can fix. aarpis why -- that is what members are asking of us and we are listening to them. i would like to turn the podium over to my friend randy johnson who will introduce our first speaker. thank you. [applause] let me go through a few more statistics to round out the regarding the employer sector. i want to note there are 650,000 private-sector defined to be plansn'-- contribution benefit plans.0 every year private employers spend more than $240 billion in

retirement income benefits. according to the department of labor among 80% of full-time workers have access to a retirement plan, and more than 80% of workers participate in that plan. have access to a retirement plan. 79% participate. these numbers demonstrate employers are in the game, try to do the best they can with limited resources to provide a retirement of some sort for their employees. there is a move away from db to dc, and there is more we can do, but there is a lot going on. employers are have been players in this issue and will continue to be, and will continue to move on. debbie you talked on the principles of our agreements. i would not go on that again. retirement impacts all of us, so i am pleased we are having this event.

artid yesterday if it's great and people feel great afterwards. it was a great event. it is the follow-up that kills you. what we do with this information later will be key. with that, at this time i am delighted introduced top rentals, chief executive of putnam investments, and his bio is in your material, but he is the perfect person to start a conversation. he has been a leader in the industry for decades now. bob has been in extremely influential in the development of 401k lands. during his tenure the grew to more than 300 million. he is intended that success. beenimportantly, bob has active on policy issues,

comprehensive retirement reform, as well as initiatives. a strong believer in the value of savings, thanks for joining us, and we look forward to your comments. >> good morning, everyone. i would like to thank randy for that very generous introduction, and thanks to the u.s. chamber and aarp for inviting me to share thoughts with you this morning. i would say my first taught actually when i think about this meeting, just hearing aarp and the chamber coming together this morning and finding common ground on strengthening retirement savings is an inspiration. i am reminded of humphrey bogart's famous last line in the "louie, iasablanca" --

think this is the beginning of a beautiful relationship." and i hope it is. because no two groups i think in in this country could do more together to events the cause of .etirement security in america and we do, all of us, share a common goal. we all want every working american to be able to save for a dignified, well-financed retirement. i trust we all agree that it is in the interests of every american business to see every working american have a real ownerships take in the american enterprise. i am very confident that these two goals can be achieved in tandem by strengthening both are public and private retirement systems and the crucial elements that make them successful. knowledge inmuch

this audience today to really talk about retirement saving shortfalls, woes, and problems, and we know there is a serious risk arising over poverty if we do not ask soon to shore up our public and private retirement systems and lift america's retirement savings rate. that is why we are here this morning. the most salient point i want to make today is that we are actually much closer to solving america's retirement challenge than i think most everyone realizes. in the workplace savings arena at least, i know what actually works. my greatest hope for this conference would be that we could begin today to reframe the national debate about retirement savings away from the problems

and towards solutions, and then on to actions to make these solutions real. so i will focus this morning on ways we can build on proven successes, successes that are already taking place within america's existing defined contributions saving systems. i will discuss three specific actions that would more fully realize the potential of 401(k) help plans to americans replaced their savings and retirement for their whole lives. i will close by suggesting that the long-term benefits that robust, reliable workplace savings can deliver for america's economy and national more row far outweigh any short- term costs. better yet, we do not need to

reinvent the wheel. we already have the key structures and insights we need to build on. to put it in a nutshell, there's thatng wrong with 401(k)'s cannot be fixed about what is right with 401(k)'s. this is especially true, since the passage of the pension protection act of 2006. defined contribution plans has been displacing other plans for a generation since the not until the was pension protection act that congress and regulators formally plans ined that k fact had become the primary source for america lost future retirement income. by endorsing the best savings

plan design elements, namely, auto enrollment, automatic savings as collation, and then guidance to qualified default investment, and by providing employers legal safe harbor for adopting these features, ppa marked a qualitative change, one that has already begun to transform all workplace savings for the this country better, i might add. protection act, workplace savings plans were seen mainly as defined- benefit plans. post-ppa, the way the change among k plans across corporate america has begun to create a ,rue national retirement system though the build out is far from finished.

washe seven years since ppa signed into law, we have seen best practices like auto enrollment spread across most large american corporations and raise the retirement readiness of millions of workers. we can see the positive benefits already, as well as a continuing shortfall in the lifetime income surveys that putnam has done years.e last three year doe these take total stock of the war thousand working americans weighted to match u.s. census parameters. the assets we cap are quite comprehensive. b.cial security, and d.

contribution plans they have, and even home equity and the value of businesses people own. overall, we estimate that working americans in total are on track today to replace income theyof the enjoy during their working careers. nfirms the future risk for millions of a serious drop in living standards in retirement, even when we include social security. but what is most important and positive about the survey's findings are the powerful evidence they provide about what is working well in america's retirement savings today. under current law and through kurt replace savings plan. george orwell once said that

seeing what is right in front of one's nose needs a constant struggle, and what this survey shows us right in front of our noses are the key changes we need to make to fully realize potential of workplace savings. and dramatically raise the successs for retirement for all working americans. foremost, we need to recognize that the only real solution to america's retirement savings challenge lies in payroll deductions in the workplace. the difference in return but readiness between americans who have access to workplace savings plans and those who do not is truly staggering. our lifetime income research

shows us that the median americans who have no savings plans on the job are on track to workce just 41% of their life incomes once they retire. and remember, that is including social security. access towho do have savings plans at work are on track to replace 73% of their pre--retirement incomes. that is still less than we should aim for the mob but it is radically a better result. workers who are active in defined contribution plans are of theirto replace 79% work life income. those who are automatically enrolled in their plans are doing even better, tracking

replacementf income . those who are and rolled in auto escalation are headed to 95% replacement rates. perhaps most strikingly, those who d for at rates at 10% or more stand replace over 106% of their working income once they choose to retire. success byiends, is any measure. and we are not talking about some tiny outlying exception here. we estimate that 23 million individual retirement savers are on track today to replace more than 100% of their current income in retirement, and they come from all income classes,

not just the well-to-do. and that is what i believe the next round of retirement policy debate in america should be about. have identified the structures and behavior that leads to success. how can we make this success and tedious? if we define success in retirement as an enabling working people to replace pre- therement income for life, answers to those questions are again right in front of our noses. three highly impactful steps that would take us from here to retirement security. first, let's aim to make the best practices and doorstep by the pension protection act of 2006 the new norm for all workplace savings plans.

auto go full auto, enrollment, auto escalation to higher deferrals, plus automatic default to qualify target date or allen's funds for every workplace there is no reasonable doubt that these basic structural elements do raise participation, deferrals, account balances, and the likelihood of retirement readiness. knowing this, i do feel like a medical doctor who has discovered a vaccine that can prevent a serious illness. in this case, a natural stress of elderly poverty. that is why i would love to see these auto features be made mandatory for all workplace saving plans.

in other words, a requirement. through the next round of pension legislation or through regulatory guidance, or maybe a sense.tbreak of common by spreading these best practices across all existing d.c. plans, we could lift the entire readiness of more than 70 million working americans. have ae it, the almost responsibility to aim for that and no excuse not to. the second big step toward boosting the retirement readiness is extend some form of workplace savings access to all working americans. many of the ideas proposed to do this such as the auto concept

and proposal simplified for 4 01k's, what would be inexpensive for companies to implement. if we require companies to offer savings plans, they could be compensated through that tax code and protected from liability like the pension protection act did. the gains in retirement readiness for below and moderate income workers would be astronomical. -- there but the auto has been opposition to the very idea of a mandate. but can we not encourage policymakers to design and sentence to make simple savings plans so attractive that every small business would be

offer them. at the individual level, auto enrollment in the work place savings is absolutely not a mandate. it is a choice. or is an easy opt out for them. mandate in theal form of taxes. everyone is subject to the mandate should also have the individual option to save for their own future on the job. by facing up to and solving this real coverage problem, we can lift the readiness and dignity of millions of our least advantage workers. we could disarm a weapon that critics constantly used to

industry. concept and the best defense of existing savings incentives in my view is to go on the offense and extend them to everyone. need tod action step we take is to lift the bar on savings rates across the workplace system from the roughly 7% level we have achieved today, to a new base line a 10% plus. drivers no more powerful of retirement success. 10%el a duty to call for plus as the new industry baseline. we do not serve anyone well i allowing them to believe that saving 3% and 5% or even 7% is

enough to ensure retirement readiness. truthtell the people the even if it is the hard truth. i know the steps are easy to say, but hard to do. securing savings access for all would surely respond or -- require new legislation. and 10%ull auto designs plus deferrals will require changing plan designs and lifting current savings rates by and among millions of participants. we are serious about rethinking retirement and leaving no one behind, these are

the most powerful three steps we can take. with them i believe we can thate a savings in america would make success easy and failure hard. we can inoculate generations to come against the risk of elderly poverty. that seems to me a goal worth fighting for. thank you for listening. i will be happy to take questions. thank you very much. [applause] >> we are ahead of schedule. we have got some time for q&a. >> yes, ma'am. this might be a little bit off topic.

in the concept of encouraging people to invest in secure , certainly historically you have had their first diversification. the idea of letting money grow make sense. what we are presented with today is a short term, volatile mentality casino type and not a reality of long-term, safe investments. risk hasility and the a piece of people having confidence and wanting to invest money. i cannot see how that is -- >> that is a very important

piece of it that spurned the invention. target funds are put together and provides diversification. the longer someone's time horizon, the more predictable returns are. the shorter the time horizon, the less predictable. you have to invest that way. been on thease has big part and the industry and solves that problem. >> that is where my money is. >> thank you. your comments sound very relevant to people who are with traditional firms. but there seems to be an getting a part in

permanent job. many are with temporary agencies. being oney end up doctors or are juggling lots of jobs and so on. any comment on how these ideas can help people like that, many of whom who are not earning a lot of money and may have trouble setting aside funds given the relatively low income levels? >> that is a great question. the current unemployment levels and under employment levels should be an embarrassment to everyone. that is another thing. anyone haswhy we say the option has an individual choice. i think it is interesting when individuals have it available to

them and they do save or retirement. since retirement is a tax referral, the cost of it is not dollar for dollar per se. your point, i think it should be made available. individual should have a choice. they are enrolled unless they say no. worry of the challenges i about is that even if people and have a fairly good nest egg, there's always the risk of outliving your savings. there is a lot of adverse selection. it could be hard to figure out how much to take out. any idea on how to address those kinds of problems? ideas.ve

it is interesting. we know for that team elation phase, we know what's make that's what makes it work. for the withdrawal phase, we are in the beginning phases of solutions and ways to do it. save enough, you should have enough money for retirement. one concept that i particularly ise more as an individual tap into it until you are a certain age. that we know when you turn that age, you have money for the rest of your life. i think it will be critical for plans for be -- to be successful long-term. >> one more.

>> i have a question about the 401(k) plans. over the last 30 years, the average balance for someone who has maxed out the whole nine -- s is about with that being said, the average account balance which is about $17,000 -- when we talk about savings and investing, would you be opposed to having people put money into an after- tax plan as well as part of the mandate? i will take the first part of the question. with that.roblem

retirement has always been a three legged stool. social security, private citizen, and personal savings. the more an individual saves, the more you can save in the other bracket. the better the retirement. as far as 401(k), i would tell was passed in legislation in 1979. the first 401(k)s in this country were called salary reduction plans. who wants to sign up with salary reduction? [laughter] plans forsupplemental many companies in america. companies.w microsoft started a retirement system. they have 401(k).

other companies had saving plans that they could convert to 401(k) later. it did not become the main retirement. a lot of people are trying to judge the system on average of all workers. there is a relatively new system. the numbers i cited to you our are actualle -- people. they will replace their income to out their life. we need to get in the right features. we have the basis for a great retirement system as a country. take that to the grave. thank you. [applause]

[captions copyright national cable satellite corp. 2013] [captioning performed by national captioning institute] >> good morning. off, you haves heard some statistics and i will throw more statistics out you. there are a couple out there that are real eye openers. the center for retirement research estimates that retirement savings a gap which is the difference of what have what they need to save is about $6.6 trillion. the employee benefits research to uses different models and different data to estimate the savings gap is about $4.3 trillion. that is just for baby boomers

and generation x. these are astonishing large numbers. we are not saving enough in this country. to aetirement center came similar conclusion for who is at greater risk. they find that generation x, my , is more at risk than baby boomers. low income households, which equipped many african-americans and hispanics, or at greater risk and women are at greater risk than men. our goal is to learn about the barriers to retirement savings. we have three experts in this field. we will go from the left to the right.

we have ms. maranda. of -- have the president thank you for joining me. what i like to do is have questions as we go along. if you have questions as the mood strikes you, raise your hand. we have a microphone going around. identify who you are for our panelists. we heard statistics about how unprepared americans are for retirement. how concerned are women based on the research you have done about being prepared for retirement and saving enough? >> pretty much every study has

shown for the past 20 years that women are very worried about retirement. surveys always a lot of that give a glimmer of hope with the market is doing great and the economy is doing great and people feel better. women live longer. that is a big issue. they go into nursing homes and they see who is there. from what i have read, women are living longer. they have interruptions in unemployment -- in employment. >> earnings are a big hurdle. women have traditionally worked part-time because of family. caregiving issues.

>> are hispanics concerned? >> yes. hispanics are concerned about retirement security. similar to the situation with women, hispanics are likely to earn less money. unfortunately, we tend to be people who work in companies that do not offer retirement saving plans to workers. about 53% of hispanic seniors depend on social security for almost all of their income. these are really important issues to our community, as well as social security and making sure that option remains something strong for all of these workers. hopefully we can work together to create a better private retirement system that will

include lower and moderate income workers. >> i will ask a slightly different question. and turns ofow african americans and hispanics in terms of planning for retirement? >> we did a joint employee to employees. we got 19,000 responses. 20% of the people that these questionnaires were sent out to responded to. that is significant. i think they wanted us to hear what they had to say. if you have a financial plan in , for whites and 4.ans -- 1 our of we asked, are you saving enough for retirement? 43% of african-americans said less.

asian americans and whites are at 90% and 30%. nobody knows how much they need to save. they do not have plans in place. everyone feels like they are not saving enough. what is enough? i do not know. i do not have a plan. let me ask this question. this is something i hear as an argument that folks make. low income people do not have the ability or the desire to save. security -- i'm curious in regards to the work you have done. how do you react to that? work that we do is with moderate and low income people. i would like to say that they want to save as much as anybody else.

they want to have access. a lot of the time what happens is they end up not having the money. they need it for other things. save, they want to be able to do that. it is important. we are working right now on a , in-homeith caregivers businesswomen, caretakers of children. it is amazing. they have shown up. especially moderate, low income people. they do it because they want the information. i would concur with that. sometimes i do talk show radio in spanish. i have farmworkers calm he. i talk about retirement security and they say they wish they can

save more money. what can we do to raise the minimum wage? most of the money i use so i can eat. it is an important issue. annual earnings were approximately 25 house dollars per year. -- $25,000 per year. sometimes they do not have becauseo bank accounts banks require ids and social security accounts. that is a barrier for many in the community who do not have legal status. it is hard for them to open a bank account. people find a way to save money. they know this is important and they want it retirement -- a retirement. i have had low income people call me about that. financialtioned institutions.

one thing i have heard is that hispanics and african-americans tend to be less trusting of financial institutions or they feel less welcome. is that a barrier to saving? >> having a bank account is correlated with saving more money. we saw that in a recent survey that we did. customeround is that service and feeling welcome were issues whennt people selected a financial institution of where to save money. we do not really ask about that issue. customer service and language access, that kind of thing, feeling welcome, very important issues. >> i will go back to a study we did. -- it covers 2.4 million participants. we look at salary. people paid $30,000 or less, how

are they into bidding? they want to -- how are they can she bidding? ributing? to -- cont they want to. you would see whites and asian americans contribute. two thirds of african-americans and hispanics will contribute to a plan. in auto enrollment, it almost neutralizes that issue. hires.e probably new younger generation and low-paid. they are not opting out. let me posit there and see if there are any questions from the audience before i go on. do not be shy. please raise your hand. we have a question here. have you any information enrollment from

people who work at relatively low paying retailer establishments? the donald's and -- mcdonald's and so forth? >> we did see the participation levels significantly very high race. asians being the highest and then whites and then african- americans next. retail is much lower than the average. enrollment is not a silver bullet. it does help everyone to increased their rate. we need that escalation. it is affecting the retail area as well. >> are you talking about the default rate? >> 50% of plans are doing 3% or less.

like you said earlier, it should be 6% or higher. if we are putting default in lower, we have to escalate. we want to see them put in higher and continue that. that areates for those not automatically enrolled are significantly lower. if you have automatic enrollment, your rates will be lower than if you opted in on your own. >> question? there has been a lot of media attention on 401(k) plan leakage. i want to know with your work workers, is that an issue that you see more commonly among low income workers than other groups? leakage.estion is on

how big of a problem is this for low income earners? any information on that? thatat the data shows is for women, they generally have less income. they have less savings. all of that. when they leave the job, the rollover benefit will be much lower. that probably encompasses a lot of low income workers as well. especially in the occupation, we know it will be lower and people will take their money. i had heard a number like 5 billion a year is the penalty per month that people are paying earlyking out their money . a lot of that is low income. the treasury department has

complicated paper on all of that. >> withdrawals and loans within -- that is where we are seeing differences. african-americans take a high volume of loans and withdrawals. the highest level of leakage is happening in the 40-60,000 dollar range. those are the ones who are really tapping in. the lower levels are, but not as high of a percentage. when we look at loans, african- americans, it is at about 50%. whites are at about 26%. there is a significant issue. more hardship withdrawals. >> leakage is an issue when you have access to withdraw. see are the major

barriers? how do we get hispanics to save more? the roomge elephant in for our community is the fact that we work for companies that do not offer any form of employer-sponsored retirement plans. they have no way to save through their paycheck. hispanics work at a place that does not offer retirement plans. it is lower for white workers. all of these questions and leakage and so forth, these are things that are irrelevant to the majority of our community. retirementchange our system and make it inclusive are low and moderate income workers. until we do that, these are interesting conversations, that they are not relevant to the

retirement security for our community and all kinds of low and moderate income workers. >> what do you see as the barriers? women save the times money for their children and the do not save money. found that they are saving for their children's education. to tell them to join the 401(k) plan is like a no-no. >> i'm data oriented. we have been doing that for 20 years or so. that is what happens. i think that is what happens or they do not have access at all. >> i agree. access to a well-designed

it -- there is data that shows if you do an automatic enrollment process, these racial disparities disappear. commentary aside in anecdotes aside, if you look at the data coming to a well-designed plan if you will address the issue. >> i agree, but a lot of people do not have access. >> ok. i'm curious about your other thoughts. do you feel for many folks that you work for that their employers would be more likely an enhancednly to incentive like refundable tax credit? or is it your sense that you really need some sort of mandate

that employers offer these plans in place in order to make sure access is there? if you look in california, they did pass a bill that has not been implemented yet. there is a mandate on all employers with more than a certain amount employees that they offer them a way to save from their paycheck. it does not require them to do a match. the money would be ruled and invested. it does not require much on the employer other than giving them it paycheck anyway. it is an automatic deduction. things that are not onerous and those aree issue, important parts of the solution. i believe something should be done that is mandatory. the system that we have has

resulted in a situation in which millions of smaller employers have volunteered and have not been provided with a retirement plan. a lot of the time the workers are lower income and people of color and women and so forth. we need a better retirement security. the solutions are more universal than what we have now. >> i would encourage you to ask that question again in the next panel and maybe the panel after that. [laughter] do you see any resistance to this concept that my employees do not make enough money to

automaticallyk or enrolled him at a level of savings that really makes a difference in their lives? what we are finding in our research is that the employees idea ofes like this automatic enrollment. they do not have it pushed back to it, but sometimes employers may use that as an opportunity to cop out or not be part of that program? questiond a similar early on. it is an important question. i would like you all to respond. hearis an argument that we from employers and others fellow income earners do not have the our the desire to save and that sometimes can be an excuse not to offer a plan.

>> people definitely understand the importance of savings. it is human behavior that if he take money away and put it somewhere and let it grow and make it hard for people to access it, it will be there for them later. those are general things about all humans. i do not know what else to say. mean, everything i have ever heard is that if people do not have access to it, they are not going to contribute. they have so little. this is true of a lot of women. studies have borne this in the past. you are locking your money away. if you have a rock and you knew you could get to the money, people are much more likely to do that. it is hard to set up these nontraditional accounts is what they think of them. it sounds like there is a

.rade-off perhaps to encourage them to save, they need to know that if they needed for for emergency, they can get it out. >> right. and they do need more education as well. >> a lot of cases it was because of costs. they are concerned about a pushback. study, we asked people if they would be upset if the client automatically enrolled them. 20% said they would not like it and probably opt out, but the majority said they like it. it would be nice. they're trying to recommend something for me. -- things that employees they will like it if it comes. if it is not a cost issue, it is the easiest way to save. it is easier than cutting a

check and walking to the bank. and we have a couple of other questions. >> i'm asking this in part because if obamacare turns out to be successful, there should be a subset that the population will find that their costs for health insurance will fall significantly and that might open up an income opportunity for people to save more. >> anyone want to handle that? the rockefeller foundation used to do an american worker

survey initiative for hispanics the main reason they get into savings was to pay medical bills. they are also the most likely to not have any form of health insurance. even if we have immigration reform, they are cutting out the new people who gain legal status. have access to subsidies for at least 10 years. >> we are hitting hard on automation, auto enrollment. there are things that we know from research in terms of what works or more importantly what doesn't work in terms of getting

african-americans, hispanics, and women to save for retirement. thehe data is so clear with auto enrollment features. i think it was 59% of hispanics but it was in that mixed pool. when you do not have auto enrollment, and 50 nine percent of hispanics participated. when he had auto enrollment, it'd percent participated. has huge and important benefits. -- 80% participated. it has huge and important benefits. it would be awesome. >> i think there is a lot of segmentation going along. mailsnk when people get e-

and they have access to something that they think is important, everything the companies are doing that focus on women will get people really excited because they do not take the time to do this on their own. if they are being forced to go to lunch time and people are talking to them one on one in a way that they can understand, they will make all sorts of changes. there is good evidence out there. >> good evidence and communication and web tools. key.nication is health products are good. once you get in, how to invest?

>> these low income workers really do not get a lot from the tax benefit. incentive to an hire people if they knew they would get a refund of full tax credit, what effect would that have? it might encourage them to keep on contributing if they get a sense they are getting somewhere. >> there is a credit in the long right now, but it is not refundable. law right now, but it is not refundable. what do think about making it refundable so it will be more -- >> that is what we're doing to

to see whether it works or not. ofre doing that refundable the credit rather than just 1% or 3% match. i think that is why they are showing up every week. >> are you seeing results now? >> yes. >> these are people who have never had any retirement savings ever. they want to do this. we all know that. everybody wants it. in such thatgned it focuses on retirement savings. >> ok. a retirement bond, that would make for another opportunity for people. >> any thoughts? >> we are definitely supportive

of that. currently the tax incentives are completely skewed to the top 1/5 of workers. it is unfair. we will spend trillions of dollars. can we do something to make these kinds of incentives refundable and available so that low and moderate income people can benefit from some of that? that would be great. so this was alluded to earlier. do with part-time workers and contingent workers. i think we are seeing something like 30 million part-time workers today.

we know that part-time workers are less likely to have access to a plan at work. women, african americans, and hispanics are likely to be part-time workers. if you have any thoughts in terms of how to bring these folks into the retirement system, how do we build on assets and retirement savings for these folks? is there any thoughts out there on how to bring them into the system? access.irst thing is then we can treat them like everyone else. ifthey do not have access, they are part-time, a lot of people will not have the ability to do it. we have been talking about that for many years. women are much more likely to work part-time.

if they did have access, it would change things. >> if he had a universal retirement system where everyone was required to make sure employees were enrolled in this new and more accessible system, all of the workers would be eligible. it would have to be portable and so on and so forth. barry when people change jobs, -- that way when people change jobs, the retirement money would grow and continue to follow them around. we are seeing a higher and lowge of minorities .ncome populations i'm wondering how that interacts securityms to social

-- >> the question is higher debt. it is a growing problem. >> it is a big barrier to why people cannot save. i do not know what we do about that except pay people more so they can afford to pay their bills. >> i'm not a debt expert. i have other colleagues who are. they work a lot with the organization. i cannot speak very much about it. there is an agreement that growing debt is a problem. building -- i think there is a balance. maybe there is an order in terms of getting the debt down. when you look at the elderly, a lot of the debt they are

accumulating is because of health care. medications and things like that. they go to the pharmacy and charge. any other questions? a second.e back for the focus is largely on a refundable saver's credit. other things that you know in order to increase savings? number one is access. of thetwo is the design plant itself. -- plan and sell. someone mentioned incentives and

education. other other things that are out there that people are experimenting with? >> they focused on certain age groups. those have been successful as well. i think someone had a question -- t the argument that my understanding is that there is literature on asset building.

any other questions? we are ahead of schedule. no. as part of the structural issues that need to be addressed, have any of you thought about for those who are low income and do not have the accessibility to invest in the be that ideauld it for them to put money into a savings account where money is guaranteed to a payroll deduction, and once they get a better status, they they can start investing in mutual funds? we higher savings for retirement -- we hear savings for retirement and we mean that to be synonymous with investing.

when we are investing, there are no guarantees on the fund. the reason that people do not invest is fear of the market. there whenmay not be they needed. but if they put money into a savings account where the money is accumulating, it will be there. graduatingse start -- then they can start graduating from that point. the problem is the gatekeepers. they are the payroll. they do not want to open that to allow people to any other type of retirement vehicle other than a 401(k).

>> that is really way that people do actually save. people need help with that. >> i will tell you that there is a group that we have worked with for a long time. they do that. they have a retirement account, 401(k).

it is amazing. they have a lot of employees. they have a lot of, shelters and things like that. they can tell them, i cannot do that. i'm fixing my car. i cannot take money out of my pay. that is because that is what they are in the business of doing. this is a bigger issue for the rest of the world. questioning up on your , is the market something that really discourages women, african-americans, and hispanics? it seems like with the 401(k), there are options for fairly safe investment. data on ther the assets in of equities. for hispanics, it was about the

same as it was for everyone else. made decisions are being by mutual funds. i have not seen data on that. i do not know if that is an issue. >> go ahead. say i sawoing to something a couple of days ago. it was a study that showed women were saving more once they got into the 401(k). they put in more money than the men. there'll be something else next week. it is interesting. -- it is there same cost across all race and ethnicity. >> it wasn't far off from the norm before anyway. most people like me put it in

and do not look at it. maybe the first up is just there and in their -- hopefully not tinkering with it too much. question isp on the it seemed like what was asked is this idea of having a starter savings account. something that is safe and transitioning once they have hit a certain level into something more. what do you think of that? is that something you think would encourage more savings? >> at the beginning it is not targeted at retirement. >> it will be principal protected. perhaps what you reach a certain threshold, whatever the case may be, is then perhaps it gets rolled over into something that has a mix between equities and bonds.

thinkt something that you could make a difference in terms of savings if there is a strong fear of the market? plan thats a secure they guarantee you will not loose your equity and they everytee a small rate turn. it is kind of more of a bond type of thing. it found that to be something that helped them get the bill passed. most californians do not know about it yet. he thought it was an important feature of the bill. >> do you think it is an important feature for hispanics? likely forke it more them to act as a pay? think possibly, yeah. i have not seen data on it. it stands to reason that people

would prefer something it he would not loose the principal on it. >> we have a question. i'm hearing lots of good ideas for ways to have employers set up plans and require employers to do this and that. that 50% or more of the businesses in this country are businesses,ed small what kind of incentives would encourage employers to do this? i would like to hear from the three panelists about what you think should be done to encourage small businesses to do these things? if the owner is taking it out of their pocket? panels willnto speak specifically to those issues. i will say something. i run a nonprofit.

i get exactly where you are coming from. i think there needs to be incentives. that is why nothing happens. we did this at the press club. was 22 years ago. we did an event on how to get women covered. here we are 20 years later. andthing needs to be done what has happened in the last two decades. i would say some of the innovative ideas coming out are wait. the california secure choice plan does not require the employer to do any math. it prohibits employers from making a match. .hey wanted to not be subject employers are prohibited from giving a match and that california secure choice plan. fyi, look it up.

they are asking in the payroll deduction, to offer it. let the employee d talked part of what own earnings you pay then and let them save that money. i would say people are bending over backwards to try to it -- try to make it as something small employers can do. for hispanics, we are more likely to work for small businesses that have less than 100 employees were also the main offer who are unlikely to any kind of unemployment plan. the industry has not offered products that are relevant to small employers. we need new ideas. it is important to make sure that businesses will not be

burdened financially or with liabilities. i think people have a moral responsibility to try to >> the automatic ira can provide a match. certainly in the president's proposal and others, there is an enhanced tax credit. we are out of time. thank you. -- you canto call clap. [applause] >> tonight, director of national intelligence james klepper speaks at the university. a house hearing on immigration status of children are brought into the u.s. illegally. economist the cato institute talk about the economic benefits of immigration.